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Post by goodpass on Aug 2, 2015 23:13:40 GMT
Interesting thread guys. Good to see the differing points of view. Will you be running through all positional for the humans? That depends on Nthomas, if he wants more food for thought. As Catchers are the most dubious of the team I wanted to do them first.
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Post by Nthomas on Aug 3, 2015 0:08:27 GMT
The Human Catcher: the Fouler is a expendable player, used to remove valuable pieces from the pitch - on Doubles: Block first: Providing the Advantages of Blodge. Grab second: Providing greater control of the push.
- on Normal Rolls: Dirty Player first: Adding +1 to all armor or injury rolls. Sneaky Git second: Reducing chances of being caught.
- on Stat Increases: I continue to take normal skills as not to bloat the players value.
My Explanation is the fouler, should be a fairly cheap player when compared to the opponents.
~What do you think?~
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Post by Squiggy on Aug 3, 2015 0:28:47 GMT
Just my 2c:
Receiver: Normal rolls, block/diving catch. Doubles: Nerves of steel, I'd ignore a 2nd double tbh to avoid bloat. Runner: Block/sidestep. Unless I rolled +ST I'd probably stick with that even on doubles. Fouler: Unsure I'd bother making a catcher a fouler, but if I did wrestle/DP. Sneaky on a double. Safety: I prefer having 2 of these, 1 with shadow/Diving tackle and one with dauntless/strip ball or wrestle/strip ball. Double I'd probably ignore.
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Post by goodpass on Aug 3, 2015 5:09:13 GMT
The Human Catcher: the Fouler is a expendable player, used to remove valuable pieces from the pitch - on Doubles: Block first: Providing the Advantages of Blodge. Grab second: Providing greater control of the push.
- on Normal Rolls: Dirty Player first: Adding +1 to all armor or injury rolls. Sneaky Git second: Reducing chances of being caught.
- on Stat Increases: I continue to take normal skills as not to bloat the players value.
My Explanation is the fouler, should be a fairly cheap player when compared to the opponents.
~What do you think?~ On Doubles you take first the skill that is not AG or Gen, so Grab should be your first pick, as you can't be sure your second roll is a double. If you become the Fouler Wrestle makes you have an opponent down already, or him being down means you can go to the intented target without the need to dodge. Picking Grab for a Fouler and then not taking a Stat Increase seems a double forked thoughtpattern. Skills picked on doubles increase the value also more as normal skills. If rolling a double you should rethink his role, as you mentioned yourself that he has to be expendable.
A great natural combo are sneaky git ( SG ) and dirty player ( DP ), no extra increase in value and those skills increase each other. Your natural speed and dodge skill make you can deliver that foul more easily against that juicy target when it is down at last. For a coach that picked thick skull and extra armour to increase the catchers stamina I expected you would go SG first and DP second. You Foul not only to depitch the opponent but you want him to rethink his gameplan. So even if you fail you have succeeded if he is distracted by your potential fouler.
A stat increase on your first roll makes you can switch his role into one of those other positions a catcher can perform. If committed to DP or SG this is the moment you want an Armour increase, as the opponent wants to remove a piece that is preying on the fallen that extra armour can be a lifesaver.
I think a so called cheap lineman pays extra value for SG and a line man with ST3 probably wants something like Mighty Blow or Guard anyway, further is he less mobile and not as dodgy to get the boot to the juicy target that easily. If you think the cost of the player did rise to much because he is packed with skills, send him out in the role of lone wolf receiver. and keep an eye out for a cheap replacement. If he has Wrestle and he is downed you can stand up and foul that marker, ST2 players foul with the same effect as ST5 players, so you negate a weakness.
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Post by goodpass on Aug 3, 2015 5:39:19 GMT
Just my 2c: Receiver: Normal rolls, block/diving catch. Doubles: Nerves of steel, I'd ignore a 2nd double tbh to avoid bloat. Runner: Block/sidestep. Unless I rolled +ST I'd probably stick with that even on doubles. Fouler: Unsure I'd bother making a catcher a fouler, but if I did wrestle/DP. Sneaky on a double. Safety: I prefer having 2 of these, 1 with shadow/Diving tackle and one with dauntless/strip ball or wrestle/strip ball. Double I'd probably ignore. Receiver: Block keeps you on your feet but Wrestle can bring down your marker, Guard can be worth the bloat perhaps ? NoS hits the nail for that position. Runner: Dauntless adds some power behind your punches, Nerves of Steel or Guard are not your cup of tea ? What if the ballcarrier has dump-off ? Fouler: You do not need a double for SG, it's a natural roll. So it does not even bloat your player that much. Safety: For toe to toe defence you picked nice combo's wrestle and strip ball are skills that complete each other, pass block gives the oppurtunity for a zone defence without contact.
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Post by Nthomas on Aug 3, 2015 9:07:44 GMT
Just gonna listen this time as I have very limited understanding of the fouler and the role.
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Post by goodpass on Aug 3, 2015 17:02:51 GMT
Just gonna listen this time as I have very limited understanding of the fouler and the role. Understanding of fouling comes on a bad day. You see a gang encircling your nicely skilled up masterpiece and then a foul and he gets an injury or worse. That moment is for most coaches the wake up call that fouling is part of the game too. Removing key players of the opposition makes it easier to win the match. It's also used as a weapon of terror, if afraid of being fouled your normal gameplan is already disrupted. It's more that I wanted you to see that a catcher is a natural fouler cause he can pick both DP and SG standard. If fouling is not your cup of tea pick another role for your catcher.
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Post by goodpass on Aug 3, 2015 17:27:56 GMT
Team management for catchers, we went through the different roles catchers can perform and the skills that are best suited for those tasks. According to your use of the different builds it is good to keep the big picture in view. As 4/5 doubles, 2/3 10's 2 11's and 1 12 make you roll something special 10 out of 36 times you want to pick a first skill that can be used by most of the builds. That way you have the most flexibility if you roll something that makes you can perform extraordinary. Skills that increase each other or make you better in a direction you are already good in make you awesome. If wishes where horses catchers want 2 Move extra and sprint so they can score in one rush, while 2 Armour extra does not make them the perfect candidate to man the line of scrimmage.
What do you think of this ?
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Post by goodpass on Aug 4, 2015 7:42:28 GMT
Nthomas, our Human teams have met several times now and perhaps you wonder why I can raid the ball more often as you. It's play order, safe moves first. You can move your men that are not in a tackle zone or are going to enter and leave one first, without risk. The ball needs protection, by distance, a cage a partial cage or at least one adjacent player. If you have not yet picked up the ball, try to imagine who is going to pick it up and what you wish to do, hold pass it or hand it off. Those spots can use some support perhaps so you are not totally limbing if you drop the ball. Another aspect of getting your men safely to where you want them is the chain push or the freeing blitz. A chain push can be used to rearrange some players, even enemies, look for a result that brings your men closer to where they want to go or in a spot so they can make a safe move. A freeing Blitz is a Blitz on a marker of your opponent, the one he marks gives an assist, beware of the angle you make the Block from, you want that opponent out of the way and not next to the one he marked, if your Blitzer has wrestle that's an extra opportunity to remove his marking. If it works you now have a free player, that can move without risk and help the team with whatever he is good at.
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Post by Nthomas on Aug 4, 2015 13:06:47 GMT
Team management for catchers, we went through the different roles catchers can perform and the skills that are best suited for those tasks. According to your use of the different builds it is good to keep the big picture in view. As 4/5 doubles, 2/3 10's 2 11's and 1 12 make you roll something special 10 out of 36 times you want to pick a first skill that can be used by most of the builds. That way you have the most flexibility if you roll something that makes you can perform extraordinary. Skills that increase each other or make you better in a direction you are already good in make you awesome. If wishes where horses catchers want 2 Move extra and sprint so they can score in one rush, while 2 Armour extra does not make them the perfect candidate to man the line of scrimmage. What do you think of this ? I believe, I am starting to see what you and Coach Jester have been telling me about skill selections. It's taken me a second to realize, that just because I rolled a double doesn't mean I have to take it every single time. Bloating my teams with skills and stats, I did not need.
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Post by goodpass on Aug 4, 2015 14:00:45 GMT
Team management for catchers, we went through the different roles catchers can perform and the skills that are best suited for those tasks. According to your use of the different builds it is good to keep the big picture in view. As 4/5 doubles, 2/3 10's 2 11's and 1 12 make you roll something special 10 out of 36 times you want to pick a first skill that can be used by most of the builds. That way you have the most flexibility if you roll something that makes you can perform extraordinary. Skills that increase each other or make you better in a direction you are already good in make you awesome. If wishes where horses catchers want 2 Move extra and sprint so they can score in one rush, while 2 Armour extra does not make them the perfect candidate to man the line of scrimmage. What do you think of this ? I believe, I am starting to see what you and Coach Jester have been telling me about skill selections. It's taken me a second to realize, that just because I rolled a double doesn't mean I have to take it every single time. Bloating my teams with skills and stats, I did not need. Humans can improve most of their positionals with exact the right skills without the need of rolling doubles or stat increases, if going that road it is good to know why and what skills add to that extraordinary upgrade. For example upgrading a Catcher to ST 3 makes most opponents bring in an assist before blitzing you. If they fail miserably with a row of red skulls you are still marked. While a Catcher that is only ST2 can be blitzed by most without support, if that fails you are in a free position. So do you want that value increase for being able to have a bit more ST ? A Thrower that passes a lot becomes better with a strong arm, and nerves of steel make a Catcher does his job even if marked. Blitzers can pick dodge.
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Post by jounisii on Aug 4, 2015 19:47:17 GMT
Even tho I disagree in some things with GP, I won't say anything about them since this is his show. BUT... There's some talk about fouling and I have to comment on that. 1st of all, SG is a shit skill. Don't take it. The only ones who get that in my teams are some stunty players with no normal general access. The only time it's actually useful is when you wanna keep a prone player out of the game for a little while. SG player marks him alone and boots. Either the victim is marked or at least stunned next turn. When you foul for real, you should use enough mass to make SG almost moot. Hardly worth 20k. Secondly, catchers are a horrible choice for a fouler. You have much cheaper linos who can get DP easily.
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Post by goodpass on Aug 5, 2015 6:08:53 GMT
Even tho I disagree in some things with GP, I won't say anything about them since this is his show. BUT... There's some talk about fouling and I have to comment on that. 1st of all, SG is a shit skill. Don't take it. The only ones who get that in my teams are some stunty players with no normal general access. The only time it's actually useful is when you wanna keep a prone player out of the game for a little while. SG player marks him alone and boots. Either the victim is marked or at least stunned next turn. When you foul for real, you should use enough mass to make SG almost moot. Hardly worth 20k. Secondly, catchers are a horrible choice for a fouler. You have much cheaper linos who can get DP easily. That's what makes Bloodbowl so interesting. The different opinions. As you are an Immortal Champion too and an infamous Fouler I hope Nthomas does listen to your arguments. So do I know that you like to gangfoul ( that's using enough mass ), Sneaky Git is more effective for the lone wolf fouler. Nthomas is sharing your thoughts already as his reasoning was that a fouler should be a cheaper player as the intended victim. Especially for the training matches I have a Catcher armed with SG ( as first skill, ouch ) and the fouling I do with him has an enormous terrorising effect. So now I try to foul a player of Nthomas at least once each training so he gets used to being fouled. The skills and players to use are not dictated by me, I just try to make Nthomas to think for himself. What do you want a player to do and how can he do that more effective.
Now for the math, a lone wolf foul against Armour 8. Rolling double 2,4,6 or 8 makes you are not send off, only the hits double 10 and 12 do. That's the effect of Sneaky Git, it's up to Nthomas to use it yes or no. It's my task to make him think what fits his playstyle best. Probably he is too much sportsmanlike to use the fouling tool anyway. If he gets used to being the victim of foul play he can handle that better when faced with it during real matches.
Nthomas, jounisii has valid arguments, consider those if you decide what player ( cheap lineman or expensive catcher, 20.000 difference ) is helped most with SG or DP, and in what order to take them. I am not a natural fouler at all, a flaw in gamestyle perhaps, so I am happy I can practise that during our training matches.
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Post by Squiggy on Aug 5, 2015 6:34:43 GMT
I think you both make excellent points. A catcher with dp/sg is a high speed, relatively mobile player who is a direct scoring threat and capable of fouling someone from an apparently unthreatening position, but expensive enough you have to ensure the risk matches the reward. A lineman with dp is almost half the cost, but with less speed,mobility, and versatility...but also much less of a loss on a red card. Personal preference I guess. Personally I like to put dp on two players, in ideal circumstances, one a basic fouling linesman and one either on a wrestler or on a kicker...seeing as I generally choose to kick first it's not an enourmous loss if he is sent off first foul, and he has some utility beyond stomping. Sneaky git, I like, but there always seems to be something more useful to take. I'd much prefer them to make the changes to sg that they've been debating for the last two rules changes...
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Post by goodpass on Aug 5, 2015 8:47:41 GMT
I think you both make excellent points. A catcher with dp/sg is a high speed, relatively mobile player who is a direct scoring threat and capable of fouling someone from an apparently unthreatening position, but expensive enough you have to ensure the risk matches the reward. A lineman with dp is almost half the cost, but with less speed,mobility, and versatility...but also much less of a loss on a red card. Personal preference I guess. Personally I like to put dp on two players, in ideal circumstances, one a basic fouling linesman and one either on a wrestler or on a kicker...seeing as I generally choose to kick first it's not an enourmous loss if he is sent off first foul, and he has some utility beyond stomping. Sneaky git, I like, but there always seems to be something more useful to take. I'd much prefer them to make the changes to sg that they've been debating for the last two rules changes... If jounisii says that Sneaky Git is a shit skill he expresses his opinion srtongly, he is an expert in using fouling so take his advise serious. Above all things I want Nthomas to think about those skills himself. My remarks are meant to do just that, not to make him a copy of Goodpass.
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