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Post by goodpass on Aug 4, 2015 13:43:17 GMT
That lurking giant can be used in many ways. As a fouler As a safety As a receiver At the scrimline At a wing As a mobile back. As a ballcarrier. As anything your imagination comes up with
Lets investigate what he has to offer in stats and skills He has enormous strength. His armour is great
He is a bit slow and he is a bit slow ( both in move and understanding ) His ballacrobatics are not that good
For getting general skills he needs a double.
Hoovering over these abilities does he appear to be the guy that spearheads the actions ?, to create holes. Does a supporting role fit him better ?, with little risk him being slow becoming a problem.
Nthomas tell me in words what do you expect an Ogre does for your team ? What 2 ST skills help him to do that what you expect of him to be done better ?
How much better is AV10 as AV9 ? What possibilities open if he gets an extra MV ? Is a more Agile Ogre an asset ? Is ST 6 overkill or is a roll of 12 better used to get an extraordinary skill ?
Think about it and I look forward to your answers. I am not here to tell you what to do, as a mentor I just make you understand: how to optimise that what you try to do.
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Post by Nthomas on Aug 4, 2015 16:36:23 GMT
Nthomas tell me in words what do you expect an Ogre does for your team ? What 2 ST skills help him to do that what you expect of him to be done better ?
How much better is AV10 as AV9 ? What possibilities open if he gets an extra MV ? Is a more Agile Ogre an asset ? Is ST 6 overkill or is a roll of 12 better used to get an extraordinary skill ?
Think about it and I look forward to your answers. Alright, you wanna talk about Ogre's ha .... I think, I can handle that. In fact here are my top three archetypes. the Blitzer- first skill: Guard allows the ogre to add his girth & weight to the next block a team mate makes, while standing close. Working just as well on defense as it does on offense.
- second skill: Juggernaut on a blitz action, the opposing players may not use Fend, Stand Firm, or Wrestle against blocks made on them, as well being able to choose to treat Both Down as if Pushed had been rolled instead.
The Combo of Guard and Juggernaut together create, the Blitzer. Providing that forward movement and the support to hold things together.
the Body/Pulling Guard
- first skill: Break Tackle allows you to use a players strength, to pry himself free of a tackle zone.
- second skill: Guard allows the ogre to add his girth & weight to the next block a team mate makes, while standing close. Working just as well on defense as it does on offense.
This Combo of Break Tackle and Guard can very reliably dodge out of that first tackle zone, whether for a block or positioning. The Wall- first skill: Guard allows the ogre to add his girth & weight to the next block a team mate makes, while standing close. Working just as well on defense as it does on offense.
- second skill: Stand Firm provides you with the option to not be pushed back as a result of a block, as well as ignoring the Pushed results all together. Not to mentioning the ultimate insult. Even if you do get him down, he falls over in the same square refusing to allow anyone to pass.
The Combo of Guard and Stand Firm is one of the strongest support pieces in the game.
~Honorable Mention~
Although, a little more expensive don't sleep on the Block & Break Tackle combo.
~What would I do?~
Would I buy AV 10? answer: No, all that would do is bloat the ogre with out a return on the added TV. What is possible with extra MV? answer: A lot, as one of the ogre's natural weakness has always been movement. Is a more Agile Ogre a asset? answer: Hell Yeah, on a Ogre team. Can you say, Unstoppable? More like the next coming of Eric Dickerson. Would I purchase extra Str.? answer: No, as there are only 2 other pieces stronger than a 5. The Deathroller and the Tree.
~The Last Word~
Pro . . . now close your eye's and imagine a well behaved ogre that comes to you from Harvard. Yes, I said Harvard.
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Post by goodpass on Aug 4, 2015 21:07:44 GMT
The Blitzing Ogre needs break tackle and Juggernaut as you want him to be mobile and not eating dirt on a both down, as he paves the way guard is not that important. He punches the hole and now your lighter troops can exploit the gap.
A pulling Guard, sounds like an Ogre with grab and guard, so you had me flabbergasted with break tackle here.
That Wall Ogre and your comment that guard and stand firm makes the best supporting combo makes me smile.
Block is what spouses do, they make you complete.
I do the math for you, AV9 fails 6 out of 36 times and AV10 only 3 out of 36.
Does Move really add so many options, then go for it. Or does your Ogre mostly man the scrimline to push and POW.
Our Ogre is not in an Ogre team, can other teammates handle the ball better perhaps.
An Ogre with ST 6 and break tackle can perhaps be used to break into a cage ?
Sweet sweet dreams, yes the Ogre becomes better in everything being a pro, even less boneheaded.
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Post by Nthomas on Aug 6, 2015 7:10:52 GMT
You know, I don't think I have ever seen a Break Tackle, Juggernaut combo. So, yeah I'll try it and tell you what I think. Alright, now you are gonna have to explain this one to me. I personally have made several BiG Guys with Break Tackle, and Guard. It works, it works well. Why are you not liking it? An a pulling guard with Grab? I don't even know how this guy would work. First there is the image in my head. A big guy with good feet. Whom has the ability to get off the LOS, and off the block. Enough movement / speed to turn the corner and either deliver a power block or once there brings enough with them to sure up the line in that area. That's a pulling guard. I know you don't like my examples. . . but, think 1940's Green Bay Packers ... literally, the pulling guard (a athletic lineman with the strength, speed, and agility to move around people and seal off defensive linemen (example: Guard) or turn the corner and smash open a hole for a fleet footed runner on the edge. (example: when a 5 Str player blitzs) An Grab . . . really, all I can think of is Coach Jester's zombie linemen he calls them glue. He uses them to mark high str big guys. Keeping them out of the action. The Trick is clever, he uses the Grab skill to keep you locked up and you find your big guy never gets loose all game. The Wall is legit as well in a supporting cast.
An after saying, all that ... I also know when to pick my fights. AV10 clearly, is better. I just was not sure how much better and if the cost was worth it. Movement seemed like a no brainier as well kinda like the free actions you make at the start of a turn. You see either you can move a full 11 spaces and score or you cann't. Movement is free, no dice rolls and should be considered. Without considering movement then there is really no reason for my Dwarf Long beard Corner to back up before the snap giving some respect to that Skaven Gutterunner. Based on what you are saying, I would believe a Bump & Run defense could take me to the promise land. I trust you and everything. . . but, I just have this deep down feeling my Corner is about to get Burnt.
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Post by goodpass on Aug 6, 2015 11:24:02 GMT
Perhaps the names did confuse me, it's just that if you try to make a combo of 2 skills it should be great if both help to do the task you have in mind to be performed better. What you call a pulling guard is in my book a Blitzer, Blitzers make the Blitz action most of the time. A Wall is already a good Bodyguard, he stands like a wall and has guard. Grab can be a handy skill if you use the Ogre on a Wing, he pulls opponents towards the sideline, and teammates can crowdsurf that dude. Don't assume I don't like your ideas, Break tackle and Guard are both great skills, I just want you to think about the fact that on a both down that hulking giant eats dirt, his Guard skill is then forfeit that turn too. The other side of the same coin is that Guard is also usefull on defence while Juggernaut only improves your offensive performance while blitzing. I am happy you defend your ideas, you believe in your own builds and have images from the past that inspire you. No hard feelings if you stick to your own ideas, I just try to give some suggestions, and alternative lines. There is a reason most Big Guys follow the mainstream.
Now you know how much better AV10 is, however St5 in itself gives already some protection, so that Armour is not tested that often anyway. If you use your Ogre as a Mobile force a lot, extra movement is a dream come true. If you use the Ogre for bashing and stomping in a static position mostly, another skill can perhaps increase his performance? That static guy does nor need movement being a static roadblock.
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Post by Nthomas on Aug 6, 2015 11:44:22 GMT
Thank You, very much for understanding my points. Can you explain a little more about why so many BiG GuYs follow the mainstream. An what outside the box thinking could improve my big guy play?
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Post by goodpass on Aug 7, 2015 9:32:30 GMT
Thank You, very much for understanding my points. Can you explain a little more about why so many BiG GuYs follow the mainstream. An what outside the box thinking could improve my big guy play? Because most Big Guys man the scrimline, Blocking and Pushing being their main job. Most have a negative skill, the Ogre is a bonehead that makes them not the most reliable tool to make the first action in a turn. The lack of Block can be compensated by Juggernaut but that does not work on defence. Main Stream thinking is that the Ogre gives support before risking him losing his tackle zone. For that task Guard and Stand Firm are perfect. Using your strongest piece to do the fighting does sound a a fool proof plan. For an Ogre to be used in a different role, you probably want some skills or stats beyond the normal ones. It's your task to pick the right path if you want him to be adding to the teams performance. Nothing wrong with mainstream, it's up to you to prove them wrong if using him in a different way. Another reason is that Big Guys can only pick ST skills, so less options. Value management is another reason, normal skills are cheaper as double rolled skills and stats.
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Post by Nthomas on Aug 7, 2015 22:17:02 GMT
Cool, kool ... personally I am after a more hybrid role for my ogre. As I have described above.
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Post by goodpass on Aug 8, 2015 15:21:28 GMT
Cool, kool ... personally I am after a more hybrid role for my ogre. As I have described above. The moment an Ogre is packed with skills, most mandatory, they all look alike. So it is in his early development that his task should be clear. To investigate general and agility skills that can make him do the things you want him to do is just thinking ahead. Frenzy for example, seems a good way to make sure that you get another block if the first one fails. Dodge, not to dodge, but most Big Guys that start to pound you do not have tackle, so dodge makes you a better defender. Sidestep, yep an Ogre that stands firm is already annoying, how about a flexible wall ? Catch, if you want him to be the ballcarrier, or sure hands if he has to pick it up himself, and hold it firmly against strippers. There is a limit but your imagination should be tintling now. Still mainstream is mainstream for a reason.
So if you want a hybrid Ogre, give him the skills so he can do what you think he has to do, and make him the best in what he does.
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