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Post by Squiggy on Aug 29, 2015 7:41:18 GMT
Since recently a lot of my games have been as humans and norse, I'd also be happy to do this. I think I'd learn a lot too, and my playstyle is probably quite different, which would give another approach to either learn, or learn to counter, I suggest you both field Humans and you keep those Norse for other matches. As you both are learning those matches add to the hours needed to master a race. By playing the same race often you learn to exploit their strength and avoiding their weakness better. Playing another that is learning seems fun to me anyway. Make sure your jerseys are of a different color, to make passing to your own teammate easier,lol. Makes perfect sense! I'm thinking two human teams for me, one a traditional all round team and one that's my 'usual' unorthodox human line-up. I shall make them later and do as you recommend, great suggestions and advice sir.
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Post by goodpass on Aug 29, 2015 7:56:02 GMT
We could do an all Human league too! But I would like it to be faster in scheduling and/or have a permanent schedule for it as I am already in a few leagues already...
Better yet, I will create a league. For whoever is interested can simply apply. I would prefer if one of the admins be boss though or at least "sponsor," "teach," and "work" with me if they don't want to do it...?
The text above this was posted by FatZomby.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is no need for that, the Phoenix open is the perfect solution to train, as we have the challenge mode it's easy to select Human versus Human matches. If they ( those learning to play Humans )want a different approach after several taining matches they can burn their team and start a new Phoenix from the ashes. Scheduling matches is a good idea, the forum has already a place to do that tough. It's called the Match making Forum.
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Post by goodpass on Aug 29, 2015 11:35:10 GMT
HumansNow, lets move on to stats and skills. Thrower stat increases: Strength = never Agility = always Armor = never Movement = never Thrower skill increases: 1) Accurate 2) Nerves of Steel 3) Dump Off 4) Wrestle 5) Dodge 6) Safe Pass/Hail Mary Pass Accurate is the first skill I pick solely for the reason of reliability to throw. If I get an agility increase, it makes it better! Nerves of Steel is the next skill I get as most bashy teams will be able to surround your Thrower fairly easy even if you had a box. And since that agility is low for a Thrower, you need to rely on throwing that ball out of there instead of dodging especially against bashy teams. Also, I make it in the options of the game where it will ask if I wish to use pass. I definitely don't want to roll a 1 in such a situation and so will pass on the RR to ensure the ball gets out of there if I don't get a 1. This is until I at least get Dump-off. Then I may wait to throw the ball on the opponent's turn to avoid a turnover and better position my players in which to prepare for the Dump-Off. The next skill I would choose is Wrestle. This is to help avoid an armor roll if possible and puts my guy on the ground without one. That way an opponent can only foul him to get that armor roll. Then I choose Dodge for survivability reasons and then Safe-Pass to avoid fumbles or interceptions or Hail Mary Pass for the long ball. If I get an agility increase, GREAT! For me, the 50k value increase is practically worth it! If I get doubles, I choose Strong Arm. If I get both of them, then I use category 2 below. Below are the various options that may be good to try out. They aren't bad, but not as effective as the above or as much in survivability in my opinion. -----------1-----------------2----------------3--------- 1) Accurate---------1) Accurate----1) Wrestle 2) Nerves of Steel--2) Dump Off----2) Strip Ball 3) Dump Off---------3) Safe Throw--3) Catch 4) Hail Mary Pass---4) Wrestle-----4) Hail Mary Pass 5) Safe Throw-------5) Strong Arm--5) Dump Off 6) Leader/Kick------6) +1 Agility--6) Leader/Kick/Frenzy Category 1 is focused on ball handling. This is ok provided that he is protected well. Not a good one to have on defense! Category 2 is if I get an agility increase and doubles on two separate rolls. Category 3 is good for a safety player that can quickly make the ball go to the other side of the pitch or to stop a receiver from scoring the following turn! I tried Category 3 when i didn't roll doubles at all on the first two skills. And it works ok'ish as the 3 agility doesn't help much (you still need a 6 to intercept the ball). But when it does work, you will definitely be smiling as you throw the Hail Mary Bomb! My reaction is below------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Deleted the other part of this article because I react to the Thrower part. An AG upgrade is 40k in value, only ST is 50k. Both worth it. Wrestle does the same as Block to prevent an armour roll on a both down result, a Thrower with Block can't be fouled if both go down tough. Your combo of Wrestle and Dump-off is great, if both go down while that ball flies to the hands of a teammate there is already an opponent down if something goes wrong there. I strongly suggest Wrestle ( or Block ) as a first skill. To be versatile that Thrower has a defending role too, being able to withstand both down results gives some backbone. You preach you pick stong arm when rolling doubles, but the build shows dodge ( you need a double for that ) ?
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Post by Squiggy on Aug 29, 2015 12:17:35 GMT
With human linemen being so cheap generally I can afford two throwers, I tend to put one on offence, with block, accurate, and then adding movement or dodge if blessed on rolls or more passing skills if not, and on defence one with kick, tackle and block to give me a better chance to snatch the ball and a sure hands rr if the ball is popped loose. St/ag I thank nuffle and snatch them instantly. thoughts?
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Post by goodpass on Aug 29, 2015 14:01:31 GMT
With human linemen being so cheap generally I can afford two throwers, I tend to put one on offence, with block, accurate, and then adding movement or dodge if blessed on rolls or more passing skills if not, and on defence one with kick, tackle and block to give me a better chance to snatch the ball and a sure hands rr if the ball is popped loose. St/ag I thank nuffle and snatch them instantly. thoughts? The throwers are cheap too, taking two is value for money. Always good to thank Nuffle if he blesses you, ST and/or AG make that Thrower much better. A Thrower with kick feels odd. To exploit his natural skills like sure hands and pass he does not need kick. Passing skills and general skills to stay on his feet fill those spots for extra skills easily. Block, Accurate, Nerves of Steel, Safe Throw all add to what you are good at already to become superb. There sure hands make them great ballcarriers or the guys that try to pick up a bouncing ball that landed in the opponents tackle zone. If your free double attempt to pick up the ball works there is no need to dodge away as you can now pass with nerves of steel and even try to bypass interceptors because of your safe throw, again you have a free retry. It's the synergy of skills that makes players superb, by stacking all kind of different skills on them they become average Joe. Lineman are more molded to become average Joe's. Throwers shine the most scoring TD's or delivering sharp passes. That second Thrower probably has to replace the first on a Sunny day he stops a block with his face and needs a replacement. Do you want to rebuild his replacement from scratch or makes having a replacement ready sound logic.
So I suggest you both build them to become proper Throwers, being able to take some damage makes your team more sturdy while not losing your versatility. If you gave him kick and tackle already and Nuffle blesses you, you feel like a fool, as that are not the skills you wanted in the first place on your main Thrower.
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Post by Squiggy on Aug 29, 2015 14:14:19 GMT
With human linemen being so cheap generally I can afford two throwers, I tend to put one on offence, with block, accurate, and then adding movement or dodge if blessed on rolls or more passing skills if not, and on defence one with kick, tackle and block to give me a better chance to snatch the ball and a sure hands rr if the ball is popped loose. St/ag I thank nuffle and snatch them instantly. thoughts? The throwers are cheap too, taking two is value for money. Always good to thank Nuffle if he blesses you, ST and/or AG make that Thrower much better. A Thrower with kick feels odd. To exploit his natural skills like sure hands and pass he does not need kick. Passing skills and general skills to stay on his feet fill those spots for extra skills easily. Block, Accurate, Nerves of Steel, Safe Throw all add to what you are good at already to become superb. There sure hands make them great ballcarriers or the guys that try to pick up a bouncing ball that landed in the opponents tackle zone. If your free double attempt to pick up the ball works there is no need to dodge away as you can now pass with nerves of steel and even try to bypass interceptors because of your safe throw, again you have a free retry. It's the synergy of skills that makes players superb, by stacking all kind of different skills on them they become average Joe. Lineman are more molded to become average Joe's. Throwers shine the most scoring TD's or delivering sharp passes. That second Thrower probably has to replace the first on a Sunny day he stops a block with his face and needs a replacement. Do you want to rebuild his replacement from scratch or makes having a replacement ready sound logic.
So I suggest you both build them to become proper Throwers, being able to take some damage makes your team more sturdy while not losing your versatility. If you gave him kick and tackle already and Nuffle blesses you, you feel like a fool, as that are not the skills you wanted in the first place on your main Thrower.
very good points, and that's why i asked, always good to get a more experienced perspective on things.
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Post by gone on Aug 29, 2015 14:35:42 GMT
By playing the same race often you learn to exploit their strength and avoiding their weakness better. Playing another that is learning seems fun to me anyway. Make sure your jerseys are of a different color, to make passing to your own teammate easier,lol. Seems counderdictory. Exploiting your strength is most often done by hitting their weakness! This was the reason why I mentioned to play other teams!Playing same race matches are always fun! The only things you can blame are Nuffle and your strategy as both sides are equal! Nice "fluff." Would be funnier if we didn't have the green circles for identity reasons during our own turn!2) It might be better for him to learn playing against a different race or him/her playing a different race against the humans. Humans are versatile and when playing against the same race with rookie teams, its takes considerably longer to learn how to play them than it would be against different "types" of other teams.
Text above this from FatZomby---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No that is not better, as you say they have to be versatile according to what they face. By taking away 22 different opponents learning the basics becomes easier. By playing himself with Humans and facing them he learns how to handle them while seeing how others handle them. That makes it a win win situation. Remember we talk about learning the basics. Seeing the stunty dodges of halflings or taking an Orc beating adds to much information. Keep it simple, that's the mark of a master. So I stand by my wish to face his Humans with yours. Ok. Ok. As I said, I haven't done a lot of playing to teach others. I assume that you have, so will take it as advisement and do it that way.
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Post by gone on Aug 29, 2015 15:11:22 GMT
"Deleted the other part of this article because I react to the Thrower part. An AG upgrade is 40k in value, only ST is 50k. Both worth it. Wrestle does the same as Block to prevent an armour roll on a both down result, a Thrower with Block can't be fouled if both go down tough. Your combo of Wrestle and Dump-off is great, if both go down while that ball flies to the hands of a teammate there is already an opponent down if something goes wrong there. I strongly suggest Wrestle ( or Block ) as a first skill. To be versatile that Thrower has a defending role too, being able to withstand both down results gives some backbone. You preach you pick stong arm when rolling doubles, but the build shows dodge ( you need a double for that ) ?"
Maybe I didn't mention it, but strength has always been a debatable issue. Some don't think its worth it, others always think its worth it, and some think its only worth it some of the time. So, it is up to you (as pretty much everything else is). What makes it difficult for people to agree on it is that strength is universal and is always great to have! The only question is how great when putting it into play and what role you want your player....
Wrestle avoids more armor breaks as it does not allow the opponent to follow up with another block from another player which can be often the case. And I would rather an opponent risk ejection by fouling and/or not getting any spp's than by him making a legal and advantageous block. Wrestle is also more versatile defensively and offensively if you find getting the ball out of an opponents hands difficult. Anyway, wrestle will put your player on the ground faster than block, but with less risk. Block will keep your player up, but it comes with more risk. Since throwers are one of the more important players of your team, protecting him seems more important! So i take wrestle.
Uh, but those are different builds and not on the same one. Category 2 build is a selective option build for me if presented a chance to get it and not my main one. And that is if I already have an agility stat increase. Anyway, either dodge or strong arm. I personally would rather take dodge in hopes that it saves me a RR if I try and pick up the ball in opponent's tackle zone after a blitz or simply because I am trying to get in and out with the ball. After all, you already have an increase in agility and should be pretty darn good at throwing already. Strong Arm can add to reliability though for throwing it further up the pitch. But I find that I usually follow up after a different player's blitz (from my own team) to get the ball which is often in an opponent's tackle zone. Again, it is one of those "player's choice" things.
Thank you for the info on tv value. I kind of overlooked the specific costs. Will adjust. Thank you
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Post by goodpass on Aug 29, 2015 15:33:00 GMT
A Human team has different positionals so learning how to use them takes time obviously. By playing against your counterpart you can copy all those nice combinations. Let the throwers do the passing and the catchers the receiving. Find out if you want the same guys to man to LOS during offence and defence. Do you like your Ogre as a Central Counterforce or as a Nose at the centre of the LOS. Are those Blitzers capable to stop dodgy catchers or hulking Ogres, and what makes them better at that task? If boxing who are the ones to place on the corners ? Do the theoretical builds make sense during playtime. Making playing hours adds to the understanding of speed and it's use. Taking info of 22 extra races is a burden I want to avoid during the basic training. After the basic training facing Bash and Dash teams is the next step. Orc and Skaven seem perfect as a stepstone to learn that, adding 2 extra races is not that tough after the basics are sunk in. I try to do it step by step, and try to tone down my comments. Giving students room to find out things for themselves is more rewarding as telling them how to play.
My way is to ask questions and let them solve small problems. While playing match after match so they get the hang of it. This gives them the opportunity to test their playbook and add plays they like and skip those things that seem to fail time after time. They are individuals with an own playstyle, I'm not trying to make them clone my playstyle.
I am happy you want to play them with Humans yourself, don't hold back. They learn most if you tear them to pieces and outscore them by a landslide. It's the Phoenix way, if you burn them they rise from the flames again and again. Iron becomes stronger by fire.
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Post by goodpass on Aug 29, 2015 15:48:27 GMT
FatZomby, I agree we disagree, I like the fact you give four possible Thrower builds and the reason why you build them that way, this gives food for thought and the students can pick their favorite or alter the priority in picking skills.
Your Hail Mary Pass Thrower in combination with Diving Catch armed Catchers can be a matchwinner indeed.
I hope this exchange of arguments is seen in a positive way.
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Post by gone on Aug 29, 2015 15:53:01 GMT
A Human team has different positionals so learning how to use them takes time obviously. By playing against your counterpart you can copy all those nice combinations. Let the throwers do the passing and the catchers the receiving. Find out if you want the same guys to man to LOS during offence and defence. Do you like your Ogre as a Central Counterforce or as a Nose at the centre of the LOS. Are those Blitzers capable to stop dodgy catchers or hulking Ogres, and what makes them better at that task? If boxing who are the ones to place on the corners ? Do the theoretical builds make sense during playtime. Making playing hours adds to the understanding of speed and it's use. Taking info of 22 extra races is a burden I want to avoid during the basic training. After the basic training facing Bash and Dash teams is the next step. Orc and Skaven seem perfect as a stepstone to learn that, adding 2 extra races is not that tough after the basics are sunk in. I try to do it step by step, and try to tone down my comments. Giving students room to find out things for themselves is more rewarding as telling them how to play. My way is to ask questions and let them solve small problems. While playing match after match so they get the hang of it. This gives them the opportunity to test their playbook and add plays they like and skip those things that seem to fail time after time. They are individuals with an own playstyle, I'm not trying to make them clone my playstyle. I am happy you want to play them with Humans yourself, don't hold back. They learn most if you tear them to pieces and outscore them by a landslide. It's the Phoenix way, if you burn them they rise from the flames again and again. Iron becomes stronger by fire. lol = no, I didn't mean to imply playing all the various races. I would have picked Chaos and Elves for the teams, but yours sounds good too! and I don't want others to copy my builds exactly as that could be boring...for them and for me. The idea is to get them thinking just as you mention. To get them talking so you can suggest things or help them realize that picking certain skills may have drawbacks! I like your method of teach, but I also try not to frustrate them at the same time as they have other things to be concerned of as well (Nuffle being a b*tch for example). So I probably won't mention much in the game unless the team they are playing is purely meant to learn and aren't worried about what happens with them. And lastly, I made a new human team (even though the other one was only at 1050tv). The name of the team is Training Team One as the only thing I plan on doing with them is playing other human teams and/or in training or being trained. My other team, Rocket Bawlers, are more to my serious team. I am willing to play either, but just keep in mind I won't be doing a whole lot of talking in-game with my Rocket Bawlers as I will be focusing more on my own concerns and play! Afterwards I will though if you wish!
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Post by gone on Aug 29, 2015 16:01:31 GMT
FatZomby, I agree we disagree, I like the fact you give four possible Thrower builds and the reason why you build them that way, this gives food for thought and the students can pick their favorite or alter the priority in picking skills. Your Hail Mary Pass Thrower in combination with Diving Catch armed Catchers can be a matchwinner indeed. I hope this exchange of arguments is seen in a positive way. Absolutely it is! My favorite quote... "No idea is stupid. Ideas take thought. Thinking is always smart! And if you are willing to share your ideas, be ready for a challenging opponent!" It happened a few times playing against Elves in one match. And they were po'd and flabbergasted at the same time! And I love giving that feeling to opponent's while I scream with a certain amount of enjoyment! However, never got to do it again within' 3 or 4 games after before he died! Same elf player got his revenge!
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Post by goodpass on Aug 31, 2015 9:06:49 GMT
Ogres: You only get one of these guys! But boy oh boy can they help out a lot with the run game and breaking up boxes! Being backed up by shadowing players with pass block players can greatly minimize the opponent's ball moving capabilities as your Ogre gives pressure to the ball carrier. And it never hurts when a big guy can make a gap to run through or a clear path to throw the ball. Don't get into a big guy on big guy fight. This will tie him up and you will lose that advantage! Also, don't forget to back him up or you may find yourself without an Ogre!
Ogre stat increases: Strength = maybe Agility = maybe, but doubtful Movement = never Armor = maybe, but doubtful
Block on doubles only! Block is waaaaayyyyy more useful than Strength and any other skill. Agility if you plan on trying to give him the ball. Otherwise don't pick it. Armor if you find yourself big guy on big guy a lot, even then its not that useful. So pick carefully!
Ogre skill increases: 1) Pro 2) Break Tackle 3) Guard/Grab 4) Guard/Grab 5) Stand Firm 6) Multiple Block/Juggernaut if you haven't gotten any doubles by this point.
I consider big guys to be more important in just about any team than other gamers do! They usually become my star player in regards to focus! So take this bit of advice in regards to how you feel! Just know about the drawbacks and advantages of a big guy before you take actions with them! Also, with a 2 for agility, I might actually consider giving the ball to an Ogre if I can to get him some spp's! If you get an agility increase without a double, this might prove useful to you to get him those spp's which are harder to get with Ogre's! Block is the most useful skill, so pray for those doubles! And since Bone-Head is soo unfriendly to Human teams, Pro is the next most useful skill. This stops from using the Team RR's. Do not use Team RR's to reroll Pro. The probabilities of success greatly gets reduced for the value of what the RR is worth! You are greatly reducing the effectiveness of utilizing them for something way more important later too! So let it go even if it causes a turnover! As I mentioned, I focus on my big guys. So I tend to blitz with them more than others do. So break tackle is a skill that I consider a priority. Nothing better than breaking a box by blitzing a big guy out of one melee into another and moving the opponent's player where I want him. Then having the opponent not be able to move him adding pressure to the ball carrier! Another idea would be (if you get a strength stat increase) to pick multiple block over guard. At st 5, I don't find this useful, but at st 6, this could be very useful. I personally never had the chance to actually use this combo as I always pick block first if given the option! I personally would take out guard because you probably won't need it that much since the Ogre would be making normally enough blocks to really not have anyone around him still standing.... Lastly, I never ever get Piling On for an Ogre. He needs to stay standing to be effective for my team! If you want a killer Ogre, then feel free to get it. But make a wise decision as to what ability you need to take out to get it!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here I disagree with FatZomby, and want to point out that picking skills is not in flux with what he says. Pick Block on doubles, but first skill is Pro, that is a skill for a Double roll !! So that is not what you said, is that a typo ? I am with what you said, Block is my 1st pick on a double unless it's a 12 ( There I pick that ST 6 ). Strength maybe and then do not go Big Guy fighting Big Guy, with ST6 you can just do that. I am with you not taking piling on, the Ogre has to give his helping hand ( Guard to his teammmates ) so keep him on his feet indeed. Guard is more important as break tackle, helping teammates is in my opinion his main role. Stand firm helps more there as grab. So we seem to disagree here about priorities too, makes BB so interesting.
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Post by gone on Aug 31, 2015 14:54:41 GMT
Block is first if I roll doubles. did not put that on chart because it is a double.
I don't pick strength on an Ogre as I want my Ogre to be more focused on finding or making holes. Especially in leagues with higher tv as most humans are not that mobile and can be easily tied up forcing you to use up those RR's fairly fast. Ogres, even at a higher strength, tend to lose big guy on big guy fights more often than win them. So, getting him out of there and letting one of the lineman tie up their big guy is better for me.
Guard is very useful indeed. But, again, I don't want my Ogre tied up. This will more than likely get him into trouble if he is and then you are stuck fighting it out near the Ogre if you can't move him to support him until he gets break tackle.
Overall, I look at reliability rather than other things. Because of his Loner ability, I definitely get skills that will make him a bit more reliable and decrease my odds of turnovers or failed rolls. Also, i want him mobile and don't want him to get stuck. If he gets stuck, that is bad as the humans do not have the strength in most cases to fight their way through and come out on top.
Agreed that BB is so interesting!
Don't forget to check out my True Chaos Cup idea under the Announcements board. I plan on making it a one day event in celebration of BB2 coming out!
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Post by gone on Aug 31, 2015 15:14:38 GMT
Perhaps you can create a new Human team and play some matches against Nthomas. He is learning to play them and he trains with me already. We do our training in the Phoenix open. It does not matter that you have a different approach for a Human team, that way he can observe different strategies. We play mostly Human versus Human to get the feel of the Human playstyle faster. Let me know what his schedule is or when are the best times of getting games in for him. In addition, please have him contact me using steam if not in the forums. My name and logo are the same as this forum, so it shouldn't be too hard to find me considering the name seems pretty rare too. Right now, my schedule through the weekdays is a little flubbery. Fridays thru Sundays are usually 99% predictable and generally have the easiest time of scheduling matches (haven't missed a single match yet that has been scheduled on a weekend!). I generally don't hang around much inside the game unless I am pondering or forgetful or trying to find a match for open/aug.
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