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Post by arthurwynne on Jun 6, 2016 6:30:42 GMT
It has occurred to me that Orcs are very, very close to being able to field a legal roster under existing Cripple Cup rules, assuming that the main reason they are banned is the amount of AV 9 on the team.
4 Goblins 2 Throwers 1 (obligatory) Troll 3 Linemen/Blitzers/Black Orcs make 10 players.
So for the sake of allowing as many options as possible, what if we allowed them to field a 4th AV 9 non-big-guy player and thus a team, compensated by the requirement that they have to take all their AV 7-8 players, and couldn't start the season (either in Stretcher or Hospital) with more than 11 players?
They would be very restricted, but there are several teams currently in CC which are effectively one-roster teams already (Chaos Dwarves, Khorne, Lizardmen, Nurgle and Underworld) and with 4 stunties and 2 of the worst throwers in the game, I have a hard time believing they would be overpowered even though they would have the most Strength access and AV 9 of any normal team - as supporting evidence, Ogres haven't exactly dominated the league. (Granted, Ogres are the worst team in blood bowl, but the Cripple Cup is a very Ogre-friendly rule set.)
What do you all think?
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Post by gorgrael on Jun 6, 2016 7:18:29 GMT
No Blitzers would be a nice easy rule.
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Post by Ren Höek on Jun 6, 2016 10:53:40 GMT
Arthur: Is your suggestion that orcs should be allowed but be able to have 4 AV9-players (apart from the big-guy)? Making it so that their max number of players would always be 11?
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Post by arthurwynne on Jun 6, 2016 11:08:11 GMT
Yes.
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Post by comfort_eagle on Jun 6, 2016 12:14:19 GMT
Journeymen might be a bit hard to control... i believe you get lineorcs by default, and not gobs, which might inadvertently put you over the av9 limits.
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Post by arthurwynne on Jun 6, 2016 13:38:24 GMT
That is true, but the way I see it, it doesn't matter much. You have to start each new season with 11 players, meaning you can't just bank on journeyman abuse even if you wanted to. And you might not want to: If goblins die, you gain strength and armor on the pitch, so in some ways you do get a power-up... but it's far from all upside. You lose movement, skills and the ability to develop your players. And your TV actually goes up. The only thing orc linemen really have going for them is their resilience to attrition -but that doesn't matter for journeymen because they're replaced each match anyway. And for the same reason, any SPP earned by them is wasted. So even if you're really "lucky" and get all of your goblins killed, considering that all teams get "permanent" journeymen if they fall below 11 players and so share in most of the same advantages of "journeyman abuse"... getting orc journeymen is of very questionable benefit, only lasts for the remainder of the season, and hampers your development while it is in effect.
Let's not confuse means with ends and forget why the AV 9 restriction is there in the first place.
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Post by comfort_eagle on Jun 6, 2016 14:30:29 GMT
lol, i always thought the reason for the av9 rule was that Ren was a sick bastard, and liked seeing injured veterans hobbling around hospital league. Either that, or he's bought shares in medical supply companies...
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Post by romfantaz on Jun 7, 2016 22:34:54 GMT
lol, i always thought the reason for the av9 rule was that Ren was a sick bastard, and liked seeing injured veterans hobbling around hospital league. Either that, or he's bought shares in medical supply companies... I'm pretty sure that both of these explanations are actually true.
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Post by parrigan on Jun 8, 2016 20:29:58 GMT
The gobbos will be the first to die, then the orcs get free cheap foulers in those lineorcs. On top of that, they have access to a bunch of ST 4+ players. Within a few games a lot of teams are reduced to 11 or few players, then the numbers advantage for those teams disappears (and some are already limited to a 12-man roster).
I've heard a lot of complaints that humans are OP in CC...I think orcs would be even more so. The reason nurgle and chorf get through is that soft rotter/hobbo underbelly. If orcs weren't limited to 4 gobbos I might like it, but since they are, I don't. But...I'll reserve my vote until I've thought about it a little more.
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Post by wenteros on Jun 10, 2016 23:55:56 GMT
I think that blitzers should be banned (too good stat and cost wise for Cripple Cup). Also Orcs should have a rule of buying goblins up to max ammount (if, ofc, you have enough money) during stunty window. Free cheap foulers - well, they have them either way - goblins And Orcs will have much more difficult time actually scoring than humans, so I think they will be weaker. So yeah, I approve of that idea
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Post by Ren Höek on Jun 14, 2016 17:05:16 GMT
Alright, time to swing the admin dick around and make a ruling here. The new rule IS (and will be until future discussions convince me of otherwise): Orcs are allowed! The rules for an orc team are - Must start season with: 2 throwers, 1 Troll, 4 goblins and 1 lineman. During stunty-transfer window an orc team must replenish their goblins up to 4 if any have died. Maximum of 11 players, even for a starting orc team.
I will update the rules text.
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Post by romfantaz on Jun 14, 2016 18:20:10 GMT
Alright, time to swing the admin dick around and make a ruling here. The new rule IS (and will be until future discussions convince me of otherwise): Orcs are allowed! The rules for an orc team are - Must start season with: 2 throwers, 1 Troll, 4 goblins and 1 lineman. During stunty-transfer window an orc team must replenish their goblins up to 4 if any have died. Maximum of 11 players, even for a starting orc team.
I will update the rules text. Why buying back goblins only during the stunty windows ? It makes more sense that they should buy them back as soon as they loose one. They will surely get enough gold for it and it will avoid exploitation of the orc journeyman. Let's say your lucky and a goblin get killed first match : it doesn't seems fair to me that you can enjoy the free lino until the stunty window. EDIT : If I did my calculations right, with your restriction an orc team will only have 700k of players. As they cannot buy anything in CC, they will have more than enough gold for buying new goblins when necessary (and a lot of wizard, potions, bribes too)
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Post by Ren Höek on Jun 14, 2016 20:53:14 GMT
Yes, but I felt that there are enough 'special rules' around orcs as it is. The stunty transfer-window is a legitimate and well known rule... so I thought it best to make it so that is the ONLY time any players get bought.
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