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Post by comfort_eagle on Jan 30, 2018 19:42:01 GMT
I like it, but I would allow up to 3 av9 OR regen pieces. Makes the rosters a tad more flexible, some of those regen guys are pretty interesting. I agree that AU should prolly have their own, slightly modified rules. Maybe allow them a few more regeners than the other teams? EDIT: Another possible hurdle are random journeymen. I assume you'd just have to accept that someone may get one-timers with regen or AV9 once in a while. You'd still not be able to hire them. Totally agree with the random journeymen. Can't be avoided, but can't keep them. With allowing more regeneration pieces, the line I've taken is to only allow those with significant negatraits (exception being beast of nurgle). I worry about wolves and wights and pestigors getting out of control.
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Post by comfort_eagle on Jan 30, 2018 19:45:05 GMT
tector suspects this might be the case too. I'm curious to see if the elves need some nerfing in this mode after the first season. Or if they really are amazing, maybe there will be elf spam here as opposed to clawpomb spam like we have everywhere else in BB. Not the worst thing in the world =]
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Post by weresquid on Jan 30, 2018 19:47:46 GMT
In the original Cripple Cup I won with orcs and UW. And everyone who doesn't have AG 4 in mixed leagues have very good skill coverage. I think it'll be ok.
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Post by blocki on Jan 30, 2018 20:51:15 GMT
That is a nice set of rules, comfort. I like it.
What kind of mode will be played? Continuous or comparable to Copper, Silver and Gold. If continuous, how long and will there be season or something like that? Or just one cup and see what happens?
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Post by tector on Jan 30, 2018 20:52:28 GMT
In the original Cripple Cup I won with orcs and UW. And everyone who doesn't have AG 4 in mixed leagues have very good skill coverage. I think it'll be ok. What you may be missing is that we want to allow people to rebuy players after every game. I think elves benefit too much from it since they have the best positionals (and most expensive ones).
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Post by weresquid on Jan 30, 2018 21:02:48 GMT
In the original Cripple Cup I won with orcs and UW. And everyone who doesn't have AG 4 in mixed leagues have very good skill coverage. I think it'll be ok. What you may be missing is that we want to allow people to rebuy players after every game. I think elves benefit too much from it since they have the best positionals (and most expensive ones). You are correct sir, I missed that. Unless you plan on inconveniencing the ag players somehow that will indeed make them a lot better. Still, with no rerolls skills are just as important.
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Post by parrigan on Jan 30, 2018 23:02:44 GMT
I think the only time you should be allowed to buy fresh non-stunty players would be between seasons. And stunties would have their transfer window, which is a one-time allowance to buy new stunties only at the halfway point of the regular season. To me, buying new players after every match completely defeats the purpose of CC.
I have no problem with ag4 in CC. The best ag4 equals av7, and there will be plenty of chances to smash said av7. Plus, the more we limit available players, the less interesting this league becomes. Limiting the number of regens and av9s I get, but the number of ag4s, I don't.
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Post by comfort_eagle on Jan 31, 2018 1:25:13 GMT
That is a nice set of rules, comfort. I like it. What kind of mode will be played? Continuous or comparable to Copper, Silver and Gold. If continuous, how long and will there be season or something like that? Or just one cup and see what happens? For the test season, I'm imagining a round robin affair with playoffs afterwards. And if the format works, we can invite teams back in who'd like to continue for another season. Depends how much re-tooling we need to do to the rules after we've taken them for a spin (and if coaches are actually keen to keep playing it). Thanks for the encouragement - but we'll need coaches to vote with their feet. Do you think you could see yourself putting a team in? Frequency of side-cups: basically as often as there is interest in it
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Post by wenteros on Jan 31, 2018 1:41:45 GMT
I like this incarnation of Cripple Cup, but: 1. I think we should be able to buy Trolls - they are not op in any way (even underworld one), negatrait abd 4 movement affect their performance too much. 2. I like undead teams rosters, decay negates regeneration on tomb guardians pretty well. 3. I don't like that elves will be as bashy as pure north team (up to 8 block players). 4. I think that you should be able to hire any star players, whatever their AV is. At the same time, remembering the troubles in original Cripple Cup, I also think that mercenaries should be banned (to avoid the situations with mercenary LOS or skilled mercenaries with tackle or block directrly counteracting some teams - especially stunty ones). 5. I agree with Parrigan here - you should be able to buy fresh non-stunty players only between seasons. But the questuin then is - what to do with treasury. 6. Some limit on clpomb skills or rosters with them? Same with some other skills - for example human league or alliance of good can field 11 players with strength access on the field, and all these players having mb po (i will destroy your team without a thought about the ball!) or guard standfirm (who is the dwarf now?) is just not fun for the opposition. 7. I think the rule that every team must buy at least 1 big guy, whose av won't go into the count of av9 of the team should return (big guys pretty often are more of detriment than benefit, the problems start when there are many, it will also nerf elven roster). 8. Union of Little people - ability to assemble a team of 6 or 7 big guys for the first season would have been a fun thing, but with a limit to only 3 big guys... Well, it is somewhat of an upgrade for halflings and goblins, but for ogres - maybe ability to field original roster would have been better, cause than they could have had 6 ogres on a team.
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Post by comfort_eagle on Jan 31, 2018 1:45:35 GMT
I think the only time you should be allowed to buy fresh non-stunty players would be between seasons. And stunties would have their transfer window, which is a one-time allowance to buy new stunties only at the halfway point of the regular season. To me, buying new players after every match completely defeats the purpose of CC. I have no problem with ag4 in CC. The best ag4 equals av7, and there will be plenty of chances to smash said av7. Plus, the more we limit available players, the less interesting this league becomes. Limiting the number of regens and av9s I get, but the number of ag4s, I don't. I'm hearing your concern, but not 100% agreeing with it. My reasons are: Elf positionals are amazing, but expensive. I'm not convinced that a coach will be able to afford to replace them at will. At most, one new piece every 2 games IF they roll well on winnings. Journeymen elves are also relatively OP compared with most other journeymen, so depleting an elf roster below 11 could lead to other imbalances. Because you can't fire injured players, the only time you could truly replace dead weight is when they die - rosters may still get filled with very beaten up pieces who just never quite die. If we were to not allow the buying of players, we'll need to do something about the massive amounts of money that each team will accrue... Maybe this isn't as big a problem as I envision, since all teams will be in the same boat. IF every team's TV is inflated by the cash they store over 150000, its still an even playing field and will allow teams to seriously re-build between seasons. Or if it really bothers a coach, they could burn their cash on stadium upgrades and buying/immediately selling cheerleaders. I'm wondering if you'd allow a season of grace to test the assumption that buying new players between games will make the side-cup not enjoyable to play. I will admit it makes teams a lot stronger, but to me, a big part of the appeal in this game is always the team building aspect, so maybe that's how I'm biased. Also wondering... If we were to ban buying players after each game, I suspect stunty teams no longer need the advantage of a transfer window (since every team has access to some great pieces. The 'Union of Small People' will be most effected, but they look considerably stronger than a non-mixed team anyway (3 big guys, an array of weapons, probably lots of inducements). Those who pick small people know what they're getting into.
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Post by tencoin on Jan 31, 2018 1:46:25 GMT
Very interesting. Aside from anything with elves, I kind of like the Anti-fur Society. Nice mix things. Like others, I would probably worry about elves dominating. I'd have to think about what to do about it though.
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Post by comfort_eagle on Jan 31, 2018 2:03:31 GMT
I like this incarnation of Cripple Cup, but: 1. I think we should be able to buy Trolls - they are not op in any way (even underworld one), negatrait abd 4 movement affect their performance too much. 2. I like undead teams rosters, decay negates regeneration on tomb guardians pretty well. 3. I don't like that elves will be as bashy as pure north team (up to 8 block players). 4. I think that you should be able to hire any star players, whatever their AV is. At the same time, remembering the troubles in original Cripple Cup, I also think that mercenaries should be banned (to avoid the situations with mercenary LOS or skilled mercenaries with tackle or block directrly counteracting some teams - especially stunty ones). 5. I agree with Parrigan here - you should be able to buy fresh non-stunty players only between seasons. But the questuin then is - what to do with treasury. 6. Some limit on clpomb skills or rosters with them? Same with some other skills - for example human league or alliance of good can field 11 players with strength access on the field, and all these players having mb po (i will destroy your team without a thought about the ball!) or guard standfirm (who is the dwarf now?) is just not fun for the opposition. 7. I think the rule that every team must buy at least 1 big guy, whose av won't go into the count of av9 of the team should return (big guys pretty often are more of detriment than benefit, the problems start when there are many, it will also nerf elven roster). 8. Union of Little people - ability to assemble a team of 6 or 7 big guys for the first season would have been a fun thing, but with a limit to only 3 big guys... Well, it is somewhat of an upgrade for halflings and goblins, but for ogres - maybe ability to field original roster would have been better, cause than they could have had 6 ogres on a team. Thanks for all the feedback, folks - keep it coming. If the masses are happy with trolls, we can certainly allow them. Elves could be built bashier than normal, but buying 8 block players may not be optimal from the start because of the cost of those positionals - they are 100-120k each, which doesn't leave much room for the other 3 players (minimum) that you'll need to have a starting 11. Also risky running in this format with no bench. I'll agree - the teams are a lot stronger - all of them are, and the savvy coach will have to find ways to exploit those strengths. Its not just the elves that'll have new tricks... Star players are not available as far as I can tell in mixed race comps. I did one test, and no Star Players were available for purchase - happy for someone else to make a friendly game against the AI to confirm this. We can ban the hiring of skilled mercs - I think I overlooked (forgot) about that from bb1 I'm an Australian, so perhaps that's another bias of mine... I'd rather have as few limits/rules as possible, and let things get sorted out by themselves in the wash. So re:limits to heavy hitting teams (claws, pomb, guard spam or otherwise), I suspect building uber-bash is precisely one of the viable strats to rival the antics of the super agile elf teams. Like I might have mentioned above, this iteration of the game seems to allow very OP nonsense, but everyone has access to it in one way or another. I'd like as few exceptions to rules as possible, esp. in this first test season. We might have to implement more direct interventions if it becomes apparent that something is breaking the game.
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Post by comfort_eagle on Jan 31, 2018 2:20:37 GMT
Just updated the 'Union of Small People' allowable roster in line with people's desire to include trolls and I thought to myself - Bugger it - lets let the Union of Small People ignore the '3 players only with AV9' rule... so we could technically eventually have a team fielding 6 ogres, 2 trees, 2 trolls, and a bloody chainsaw.
Is this something we want? 'Union of small people' could look a lot more like 'Union of Massive people' before long.
*** Upon reflection, I don't think this is a good idea. It'd be fun, but it goes against the flavour of cripple cup. Might have to save this nonsense for a non-cripple-cup mixed teams comp.
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Post by comfort_eagle on Jan 31, 2018 2:39:17 GMT
Did a quick count - it seems 8 out of 11 teams have rostered access to agility 4 pieces, and 9 out of 11 teams have rostered access to multiple str5 pieces.
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Post by Oni Goku on Jan 31, 2018 6:24:52 GMT
Several comments below.
1 I would add Igor to the list of banned inducements.
2 AU can have 9 regen players on the team/pitch though the team looks balanced with that option. (Not sure I would want to field it though and have 2 thralls for the 6 vamps.)
3 I like the option of 3 players with AV9 as that helps to open the rosters up but keeps them limited.
4 I would allow buying new players during the season and afterwards take a look at limiting it if needed.
I think it will be interesting to see the rosters used and what happens to them during the season. Also need 1 season just to see how it plays out in mixed league then seeing what tweaks are needed to the league.
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