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Post by Ren Höek on Dec 7, 2015 0:18:38 GMT
These are the rules todayThe thought is that these races have too many 'sane' skills from start and therefore have less 'random potential'. Having a team where every player has the block skill (norse) for example is of course a huge advantage vs.. well, let's say an orc team with 3 kickers.
But we are here the ones who make the league and I am looking for input to this rule. Should any of the above races maybe be allowed, or are there races that are allowed today that maybe should not be allowed in the future? What do you guys think. Even if you think the rules are ok as they are - pls say so and why, all input is good input.
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Post by Squiggy on Dec 7, 2015 0:38:35 GMT
These are the rules todayThe thought is that these races have too many 'sane' skills from start and therefore have less 'random potential'. Having a team where every player has the block skill (norse) for example is of course a huge advantage vs.. well, let's say an orc team with 3 kickers.
But we are here the ones who make the league and I am looking for input to this rule. Should any of the above races maybe be allowed, or are there races that are allowed today that maybe should not be allowed in the future? What do you guys think. Even if you think the rules are ok as they are - pls say so and why, all input is good input. To be fair, with up to 4 block, up to 4 dodge, sure hands, pass and catch all built in, you could say the same about humans.
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Post by jordionboy on Dec 7, 2015 0:39:55 GMT
Unfortunately i have been thinking about the elves we allow.
with the pure bash teams banned because of skills, does this leave the elves as the most powerful team? They have access to agility and general on every player, they have an extra agility on every player and block to rival most other teams with no draw back, their low armour is less of a thing since the average for RSL is 8, which most elves have when taking into consideration their high movement and agility getting them hit the least of any team.
there is next to no tackle or block, the elf killing skills, even mighty blow is next to impossible to get without going something like ogre or khemeri, which have a lot of trouble keeping up with the high agil elves. and the elves rarely have the strength deficiency of players like goblins or gutter runners. The only team really a bashy threat to the elves are the chaos, which can get a large number of unhelpful skills and start with no block at all. or maybe saurus but they have the skinks who are much weaker.
This may just be my opinion but they are by far the least impacted by the randomness, and i think that's as iffy as players like chaos dwarves, who are similar to lizards, but with bash skills, rather than agil skills like the skinks get. or amazon, which has a skill that only makes it more dodgy and harder to get down, a skill elves already have and better with agil 4
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Post by Squiggy on Dec 7, 2015 1:00:48 GMT
Unfortunately i have been thinking about the elves we allow. with the pure bash teams banned because of skills, does this leave the elves as the most powerful team? They have access to agility and general on every player, they have an extra agility on every player and block to rival most other teams with no draw back, their low armour is less of a thing since the average for RSL is 8, which most elves have when taking into consideration their high movement and agility getting them hit the least of any team. there is next to no tackle or block, the elf killing skills, even mighty blow is next to impossible to get without going something like ogre or khemeri, which have a lot of trouble keeping up with the high agil elves. and the elves rarely have the strength deficiency of players like goblins or gutter runners. The only team really a bashy threat to the elves are the chaos, which can get a large number of unhelpful skills and start with no block at all. or maybe saurus but they have the skinks who are much weaker. This may just be my opinion but they are by far the least impacted by the randomness, and i think that's as iffy as players like chaos dwarves, who are similar to lizards, but with bash skills, rather than agil skills like the skinks get. or amazon, which has a skill that only makes it more dodgy and harder to get down, a skill elves already have and better with agil 4 But on the other hand they start with little block (2-4 max), little dodge (zero on pros, zero on high, 2-4 on woodies-though generally you can afford 2 max), have NO natural access to guard, MB etc. I'd agree tackle was an issue if the odds on an elf getting dodge werent so high, I mean with AG/G access on all players it's a 1 in 23 chance I believe of one of them getting dodge. Which is pretty much equal odds to a saurus getting guard, or an orc blitzer getting MB or tackle.
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Post by arthurwynne on Dec 7, 2015 1:27:49 GMT
I definitely don't think we should ban Humans, in fact I think there's a fairly good argument for allowing Chaos Dwarves. Norse, Dwarves and Amazons should stay banned though, in my opinion -with the ubiquitous Block the former two aren't sufficiently disadvantaged by random skill ups to be fair, and Zons have a similar issue, although it manifests differently:
The reason why I think Zons are deservedly banned isn't that they all start with Dodge. Dodge is a good skill (And AG 3+Dodge is in fact better than naked AG 4, especially in RSL when you can't take Dodge first thing) but on a team of all-Thrall statlines, it's just the thing that gives them a distinctive play style. In fact their average stats make them so reliant on good skill-ups that I don't think they'd be an issue, except: The real issue with Amazons is that they can hire 4 Blodge players as rookies, and since the linewomen only have G access the odds of them picking up Wrestle or Block within their first two skills is very good.
The thing about RSL is that doubles, and broad skill access more generally, becomes a drawback rather than an advantage because it increases the chance of getting a poor skill. The reason elves are so good is that their high stats allow them to take advantage of just about any skill. Low stats make a player more specialized and increase the chance that he'll get a skill he won't be able to take advantage of. That's why I think Chaos Dwarves are likely to be fair in the format -Sure Hands dwarf, anyone?
I can see the argument that elves are the best race in RSL (Wood elves spesifically, most likely, although Dark Elves at least aren't far behind and the other two elf teams are no slouches either). But they are not the only good teams: Humans and Undead are very good as well. Skaven too. Where does it end? What teams are "bad enough?"
I think we can all agree that it's best to ban the minimum number of teams that is necessary to give us a balanced and entertaining league environment. In light of that I don't think we should ban any team that doesn't cause obvious issues. After all, Wood Elves are the best team in ordinary Blood Bowl too, statistically. That's just something we have to live with, and the coaches who prefer to play Underworld or Necromantic instead don't let the statistics stop them, from what I've seen.
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Post by Squiggy on Dec 7, 2015 1:36:30 GMT
Not saying humans should be banned, merely stating why having a few good initial skills is that big an advantage. As to elves, with dodge being so rare yet so essential (remember, 2 of the 4 elf teams start with no dodge and only 2 block, one can start with 6 dodge technically but it's impossible to afford more than 3 initially, and dark elves technically can start with dodge but when do you see witch elves on a rookie delf roster? Block and wrestle being such a long shot when all players have multiple skill type access is also weak, and although yes, wardancers get blodge, they do so at a cost of being the most expensive rookie in The game.
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Post by shaunuthun on Dec 7, 2015 1:46:07 GMT
Id be all for letting chords be in with maybe only 3 blockers allowed? That's less block than orcs or humans get and they have better armour than humans and tackle for far less speed and agility 4vs7 2vs3 . 3 is Enough to be formidable not enough to be "op" . Elfs having high agility can be an issue true not many teams can combat that but keep in mind that this isn't CC so rlfs are faced with the issue they always have. Cash. Bashy teams like orcs or lizzies can generally replace their injured or dead but elfs won't always be able to afford that. Overall I think we have to be careful or else we end up mimicking other leagues. Do we just make it fraternity? No cause we want a nice variety. Just my 2 cent
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Post by gorgrael on Dec 7, 2015 7:04:44 GMT
Just actually imagine a Dwarf team with random skills. No or hardly any Guard/ Mighty Blow. They would end up with break tackle and strong arm. The runner getting Hail Mary instead of block. I think for the first season/ couple of games they would play well then become weaker and weaker as they develop terribly. And the doubles thing is an issue for me.
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Post by Squiggy on Dec 7, 2015 8:13:51 GMT
Id be all for letting chords be in with maybe only 3 blockers allowed? That's less block than orcs or humans get and they have better armour than humans and tackle for far less speed and agility 4vs7 2vs3 . 3 is Enough to be formidable not enough to be "op" . Elfs having high agility can be an issue true not many teams can combat that but keep in mind that this isn't CC so rlfs are faced with the issue they always have. Cash. Bashy teams like orcs or lizzies can generally replace their injured or dead but elfs won't always be able to afford that. Overall I think we have to be careful or else we end up mimicking other leagues. Do we just make it fraternity? No cause we want a nice variety. Just my 2 cent Great point.
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Post by jordionboy on Dec 7, 2015 8:45:41 GMT
Just actually imagine a Dwarf team with random skills. No or hardly any Guard/ Mighty Blow. They would end up with break tackle and strong arm. The runner getting Hail Mary instead of block. I think for the first season/ couple of games they would play well then become weaker and weaker as they develop terribly. And the doubles thing is an issue for me. this was something i considered too, especially since as people say dodge is hard to get, severely impacting tackles usability and the block skill is mostly countered by having lack of movement, sure block is great in rsl, but when can can move just over half as far as most of the agile players it's not that much more helpful than strength, so chorfs especially aren't much worse that you'd expect, only maybe as good as khemeri, but more ability to be random due to more all round access than khemeri. i mean what are the chances of getting might blow or guard on one chorf, nevermind more than that. In the end that's kinda my biggest problem with elves, no solid counter in players. they might not get dodge, but no team is more likely to and there is little tackle. sure humans have 4 dodge players, but will almost never get more, all elves can get dodge comparatively easily (compaired to other teams, since all their players get agil access), and it might be better to have dodge but with elves it certainly isn't necessary, and agility isn't affected by any tackle. there is also the fact of less block meaning elves getting put down even less, especially those with more block, i think human, orc and dark elf start with the most block of any teams. so they level fast and are harder to put down in rsl, so don't die, so once you get them moving their high cost just means they take a little longer but still can keep up just as well, i mean how many elves have died thus far?
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Post by Squiggy on Dec 7, 2015 10:09:32 GMT
Going by that argument skaven are the most overpowered team. Their linemen have easier access to block and tackle and wrestle than any elf. Their team is on average faster than any elf. They have cheaper "disposable" players, more dodge than three of the four elf teams, ag4 players who are also the fastest on the game AND have mutation access AND equal access to block etc as any elf, AND more guard/strength access, and access to one of the better big guys in this format, and can match elves for speed (though not mobility) and have key reroll saving skills that are hard to get randomly built in (sure hands) Not saying skaven should be banned, just putting it into perspective.
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Post by jordionboy on Dec 7, 2015 22:15:53 GMT
Going by that argument skaven are the most overpowered team. Their linemen have easier access to block and tackle and wrestle than any elf. Their team is on average faster than any elf. They have cheaper "disposable" players, more dodge than three of the four elf teams, ag4 players who are also the fastest on the game AND have mutation access AND equal access to block etc as any elf, AND more guard/strength access, and access to one of the better big guys in this format, and can match elves for speed (though not mobility) and have key reroll saving skills that are hard to get randomly built in (sure hands) Not saying skaven should be banned, just putting it into perspective. i understand what you're trying to say, but it's not my point, i've already addressed these, yes, gutter runners are strong, but there are four, and the rest of the team is fairly average, and they have the strength issues i commented on earlier. line rats don't get dodge on single rolls as elves do, block is something nearly every important player can get except stunties, which have a host of problems, elves have best of both worlds. their reall flaw is bash killing them and being expensive to replace, but that so seldom happens in this league due to lack of things like block or MB. as for mutations they get it on a double, which in the league means you're as likely to get kick off return or strong arm as extra arms or two heads. Skaven are balanced by the same thing as chaos, they might start of with some higher stats, but it's only on a couple of characters. where as everything else is up to chance, you could end up haveing to play a team not the best for skaven, with elves they don't have to have skills a lot of the time. that extra stat on all players is enough. as for the big guys, the elves have the tree along side one of the strongest players in the war dancer. on top of all the agiliy extra, so most of the stronger players opposing wood elves especially get stuck tacking hits (at least one if on the line) by the tree when all elves can dodge away from big guys pretty easy, see a line rat do that as often as elves can.
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Post by Squiggy on Dec 7, 2015 22:19:44 GMT
The main issue I see is that for any player with G access, it's a 1 in 7 chance of getting block or wrestle. Ie orcs, human, skaven linemen. For A/G access players (elves) it's 1 in 11, for elves with pass access as well it's 1 in 19! And although yes, dodge is a powerful powerful skill in this league, not a single elf team can afford to start with more than 2, which skaven can. And two or three, depending on how suicidal you are, start with no dodge and only two maximum block. Dodge is a 1 in 25 long shot at BEST for every elf! For key skills like block, tackle, wrestle, any team with G access only players has the best shot at gaining them. the teams who have NO players with access to only G? Chaos, elves and dwarves. Add in the fact they are the only teams in this league with zero strength access players (aside from one treeman on one elf team) and you're looking at a 1 in 44 chance of them gaining guard, which is triple what any other team at all risks, and quadruple that of teams with S only players.
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