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Post by havol on Jun 28, 2016 18:44:41 GMT
Just wondering about any of our players' take on the vote and outcome. Being a dumb yank, I've only heard little. Just wondering if you voted and how you feel about the outcome. Are you excited for the future, or what?
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Post by Insidious on Jun 28, 2016 22:32:31 GMT
We are fucked! I voted to remain and the whole campaign has been a series of misinformation and political wrangling to further political careers and nothing to do with Europe. It has stirred up a lot of xenophobia with racial abuse rising significantly across the country. The Brexit campaign was based on keeping immigrants out/controlling our borders. The bizarre thing is that most of our immigrants come from outside the EU and people are just reacting. All it has done has fucked the economy, the only way we can keep our trade deals with Europe is to accept movement of EU citizens in to the UK. in other words the "Brexiteers" have not "got control of our borders back" as they claimed would happen. Personally i think migration brings alot of positives to the country, problems with the healthcare system and lack of jobs within the country is due to austerity measure brought in by the current government which is now being blamed on immigrants because it is an easy target. This sums it up nicely There we go rant over just in case any of my fellow Ip guys voted out, I never let politics get in the way of friendship/bloodbowl. see you on the pitch.
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Post by Ren Höek on Jun 29, 2016 12:54:45 GMT
Insidious summed up my analysis of it all also. You know a vote is going to end badly when the winning side can be quoted: "Britain has had enough of listening to experts!"
Although I am no fan of EU, I think the Brexit vote was about immigration, not EU. It will be interesting to follow what happens now though.
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Post by havol on Jun 29, 2016 14:07:25 GMT
The video was priceless I'm afraid that the Brexit is a precursor to this country's coming election. Nothing quite like some good ol' xenophobia to make some crazy shit happen.
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Post by romfantaz on Jun 29, 2016 14:54:07 GMT
I'm not english, but as a fellow european, I'm starting to get scared by how misinformations and xenophobia is shaping again the whole continent. Debates in France are totally batshit insane too, mixing with no real consideration economy, migration and terrorism. Aren't we supposed to be in the Age of Information by the magic of the internets and all ? Mass enlightment all over ? It seems no real social progresses have been made since WW2 and peoples still live by their silly narrow-minded opinion that what is foreign is dangerous. Misconceptions and unrational fears about migrants and foreigners are still here, deeply rooted. Maybe, as a UK friend of mine said, the good side of all this is that the "can of worms is now opened". The problems of UK society are now fully exposed and, I hope, will get addressed better. It may also help Europe to finally redefine its priorities as a socio-political alliance and not as an economic liberal tool (I assume the double-entendre here We will see.
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Post by arthurwynne on Jun 29, 2016 15:21:26 GMT
Like romfantaz, I am not British (I am Norwegian) and as such, I can only watch in horror... but I am very interested in politics and have been following events closely. It seems crystal clear to me that leaving the EU is about the most destructive thing that Britain could realistically do to itself as things stand, and it's staggering how many people who campaigned and voted for Leave seem not to understand that. There is virtually no connection between what the Leave supporters have said they want and the effects Brexit will actually have and I can see no upside to the situation, except for the fact that a referendum isn't actually a binding decision and there is still hope that it won't happen.
Now what really has me worried is that a sizeable minority of my friends have actually somehow convinced themselves that this is a good thing - I think out of sheer unexamined antagonism towards the EU.
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Post by romfantaz on Jun 29, 2016 15:37:10 GMT
Like romfantaz, I am not British (I am Norwegian) and as such, I can only watch in horror... but I am very interested in politics and have been following events closely. It seems crystal clear to me that leaving the EU is about the most destructive thing that Britain could realistically do to itself as things stand, and it's staggering how many people who campaigned and voted for Leave seem not to understand that. There is virtually no connection between what the Leave supporters have said they want and the effects Brexit will actually have and I can see no upside to the situation, except for the fact that a referendum isn't actually a binding decision and there is still hope that it won't happen. Now what really has me worried is that a sizeable minority of my friends have actually somehow convinced themselves that this is a good thing - I think out of sheer unexamined antagonism towards the EU. Well, I'm all for the humanist principles of Europe. But any decent analyst has to admit it is not the most efficient thing right now. Lobbies from private companies and banks kind of own the place and how the European Parliament function an obscure thing for the general public. The perfect soil for false belief, like "they impose too much regulations" or "they force us to host migrants" (while the latter is actually a state-to-state negotiation). Like you say, I also believe that a lot of people have voted to leave (for the UK) or will vote to leave if we ask them, just because of its bad reputation. But then I understand that there is a similar feeling in the US about the federal government being the big bad wolf. Here are some John Oliver's insights : www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAgKHSNqxa8And the update he did after the vote : www.youtube.com/watch?v=nh0ac5HUpDUI'd love to see him doing a more complete piece about the Europe Union.
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Post by mystaes on Jun 29, 2016 15:42:06 GMT
I do think labeling all leave supporters under the same brush is a little bit unfair, much as many of you would have voted to remain for your own reasons. The thing about referendums is that they unite a wide swathe of people with different ideas under one of two sides.
I am in no way British. But I would have voted for the leave side. And it has nothing to do with immigration or any of that nonsense. The EU as it stands is an abomination. Originally the EU was never intended to be a legislative body, and in fact multiple member states rejected the idea, but they undemocratically pushed the Lisben treaty through the backdoor anyways (Said treaty, by the laws of the EU, SHOULD have required the agreement of all member states, but multiple states rejected it and were then ignored/pressured until they accepted it). Why should you as the British people accept a foreign body, which you as a population have no democratic say in electing, as a legislator for laws that effect life in Britain?
As it stands the EU is moving towards a European federation. I would gladly accept economic turmoil in the short term if it meant regaining the sovereignty of my country, which in the case of member states of the EU has been trampled with little to no say from the people of these member states. Britain will now be able to negotiate its own trade deals, and hold its own politicians accountable for the laws that govern their everyday lives. Brexit was a great day for democracy - maybe the corrupt leaders of the EU will finally wake up and reform their broken system.
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Post by romfantaz on Jun 29, 2016 16:06:41 GMT
I do think labeling all leave supporters under the same brush is a little bit unfair, much as many of you would have voted to remain for your own reasons. The thing about referendums is that they unite a wide swathe of people with different ideas under one of two sides. I am in no way British. But I would have voted for the leave side. And it has nothing to do with immigration or any of that nonsense. The EU as it stands is an abomination. Originally the EU was never intended to be a legislative body, and in fact multiple member states rejected the idea, but they undemocratically pushed the Lisben treaty through the backdoor anyways (Said treaty, by the laws of the EU, SHOULD have required the agreement of all member states, but multiple states rejected it and were then ignored/pressured until they accepted it). Why should you as the British people accept a foreign body, which you as a population have no democratic say in electing, as a legislator for laws that effect life in Britain? As it stands the EU is moving towards a European federation. I would gladly accept economic turmoil in the short term if it meant regaining the sovereignty of my country, which in the case of member states of the EU has been trampled with little to no say from the people of these member states. Britain will now be able to negotiate its own trade deals, and hold its own politicians accountable for the laws that govern their everyday lives. Brexit was a great day for democracy - maybe the corrupt leaders of the EU will finally wake up and reform their broken system. I actually agree with almost everything you say. Democratic representation of the population of the member state is indeed a big issue. But it is also exactly why we got the European Parliament with elected deputies, directly by the population. But still lot of people don't really know what it means and what they do here (and maybe even them don't really know...). I don't know what is your country, but I also admit that the balance of power between the member is totally tip. And the "small" economies like Greece, Portugal or the Eastern state usually got the worth side of the deals. But it is also the responsibilities of their own government for failing negociations and agreeing to insane terms. Still leaving the whole thing feels for me like the saying we got in French "throwing the baby away with the bath water". I will say that "economic turmoil" is a huge understatement. The UK needs badly an access to the European Common Market and they will very likely now face very unfavorable negotiation against the German-France block. For example, the Scottish and the Londonians are presently the ones with the most to lose due to their agricultural economy or their globalized industries. And that is why they are now both looking for a way out ot the "leave". We may speak here about an unnecessary economic recession which gonna spread for tenth of years, only caused by political convictions and not the logical market law..
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Post by mystaes on Jun 29, 2016 17:39:46 GMT
I disagree in part with this. If the EU wants to act like children about the decision of the people and cut off its nose to spite its face, then it is not an institution I would ever be a part of. There is absolutely no reason for the EU not to approach the negotiations like sensible adults. The fact of the matter is Britain imports a lot more from the EU then the EU receives from Britain. In particular, the Germans rely heavily on the British market to sell their automobiles - their cash cow - as Britain is their #1 buyer.
Both sides have much to gain from a sensible trade deal, and endangering your own economy because you don't like the decision of another country is irresponsible. Britain can now negotiate its own trade deals instead of having the EU dictate them, which means it can return to better relations with the commonwealth. The moment after leave was declared, my country (Canada), the United States, and Germany all called for different direct trade deals with Britain. I expect more will follow.
It's simple economics really. Compared to many markets, Britain's domestic market is rather strong. Additionally, there is money to be made in Britain, and in part because the powers that be are influenced heavily by the private sector, member states of the EU are not going to risk losing access to that wealth. Britain can now work out trade deals where the EU would have prevented it from doing so. Trade deals that are more beneficial to Britain then any that were imposed by the EU.
I expect that if the EU is remotely sane, when the dust settles Britain will be quite fine on its own as a mutual trading partner of the EU and the rest of the world. The fact that they don't have to pay millions of pounds per day for EU membership, and will no longer be forced to pay for bailouts of the failed economies in the EU will be several boons to keep an eye on.
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Post by romfantaz on Jun 29, 2016 18:59:36 GMT
For the sake of our nice british friends, I'd love to believe that. But it is not how it works. And not simply because the EU will be childish. But because they will play the protective economic game in a global receding economy and that they will have no more interests in looking for an ex-partner who step out of the game. Direct trade agreements may be good when you got mutual beneficial exchanges, but they are not when you face concurrence from other global actors (like the chinese cereals or the oil). Agriculture is again a good example. The EU common agricultural politic was all about preserving the sectors of each state and avoiding price dumping. Now UK is alone there, and it is unlikely another UE member will accept to buy parts of its outcome, jeopardizing his own sector without some very good compensation. Before the leave, UK with his direct-elected representatives (who some are none other than... Well, you know...) was part of the discussions for common rules guaranteeing a less worse solution for everybody. Now that they are not anymore, it is unlikely that another member will sacrifice his own economy out of love for the fish'n chip. The less worse solution will be define for everybody else.
Also the argument that by leaving you just save your european contribution was just a huge hoax by the pro-leave. One they had to confess right after the result. The reason for that is that what you pay, you'll get it back directly or indirectly with trade deals or shared bureaucracy. Experts are crunching numbers differently but they all seriously doubt that you can have a net benefice by leaving. Mainly because you will have to reform your governmental body to do things that were shared before like control of standards. Standards that you will not be asked your opinion about them before they are defined for the EU common market.
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Post by romfantaz on Jun 29, 2016 19:26:29 GMT
Where you can't quite hear what those Pro-leave leaders says over all these backtracking noises : www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-referendum-nigel-farage-nhs-350-million-pounds-live-health-service-u-turn-a7102831.htmlAnd the irony that they are actual MEP (Member of the European Parliament) who get their main incomes and professional expenses coverage from that same contribution they declared they will be saving... Edit : actually a good solution that may work according to your opinion, mystaes, will be that the UK does like Norway and pay a contribution for a free acces to the EU common market as a non-state member. But the amount of such a contribution will be discussed a lot and, in my opinion, losing their share in the policymaking of the common market will still hurt.
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Post by arthurwynne on Jun 29, 2016 22:57:53 GMT
It is true that the EU is undemocratic and bureaucratic, that its mandate is unclear and even, to a large extent, that it is a tool for German foreign policy and economic interests.
However, even so the EU with its common market, its regulations and its freedom of movement is a huge net benefit to the quality of life in its member states and withdrawing from it is absolutely the wrong move. There is no way to get a better deal as an outside trading partner to the EU than you would get as a member -by definition, because any union that treats non-members more generously than members has no reason to exist. The only reason to leave the EU is in an extreme "lesser of two evils" scenario - for example, given that the fiscal policy of the Eurozone was to punish Greece rather than stimulate its recovery, they should have left the Euro to enact their own fiscal policy -and to do that they would probably have needed to leave the EU entirely. But absent such a situation, which does not apply to the UK, there is nothing you can do to improve on the status quo in Europe that requires leaving the EU first. The gains do not remotely bear comparison to the economic and diplomatic costs, and work for the betterment of Europe and reform of the EU are just as easily, and far more safely, done from within.
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Post by mystaes on Jun 30, 2016 4:30:53 GMT
It is true that the EU is undemocratic and bureaucratic, that its mandate is unclear and even, to a large extent, that it is a tool for German foreign policy and economic interests. However, even so the EU with its common market, its regulations and its freedom of movement is a huge net benefit to the quality of life in its member states and withdrawing from it is absolutely the wrong move. There is no way to get a better deal as an outside trading partner to the EU than you would get as a member -by definition, because any union that treats non-members more generously than members has no reason to exist. The only reason to leave the EU is in an extreme "lesser of two evils" scenario - for example, given that the fiscal policy of the Eurozone was to punish Greece rather than stimulate its recovery, they should have left the Euro to enact their own fiscal policy -and to do that they would probably have needed to leave the EU entirely. But absent such a situation, which does not apply to the UK, there is nothing you can do to improve on the status quo in Europe that requires leaving the EU first. The gains do not remotely bear comparison to the economic and diplomatic costs, and work for the betterment of Europe and reform of the EU are just as easily, and far more safely, done from within. I suppose its a matter of how much you value self determination and democracy. For many perhaps the comfort provided by the EU might outweigh sacrificing their national sovereignty. However, I would rather struggle and be free then have my life dictated in any way by such an institution. The bottom line was people have been calling for reform in the EU for a long time, and many have felt ignored throughout the entire process. Brexit should finally add that stimulus needed to force the EU to change - because if the EU looks at Brexit and continues to operate as it does, I can guarantee that the UK will not be the last member state to give them the middle finger. One thing I am personally excited to see come out of this whole mess - there has been a suggestion for a Free Movement treaty between Canada, Australia, the UK and New Zealand...essentially a proto-commonwealth treaty, which will probably evolve to include the rest of the commonwealth if successful.
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Post by Kaiser on Jun 30, 2016 9:36:44 GMT
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