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Post by Ren Höek on Sept 12, 2015 1:40:53 GMT
Dwarves are OP in BB2? I am not surprised. The awful tradition continues. If AG4 is better than block-dorfs of course depends on what style you play as a coach. But dorf blockers in BB1 have block AND tackle, so that very much neutralizes the dodgier teams. And worst of all, dwarf teams encourage the cage-bashing style of playing. Luckily I have candy crush on my smart-phone. That helps alot those times I am stuck playing vs. a dwarf team.
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Post by shaunuthun on Sept 12, 2015 1:58:17 GMT
Ok ok ok yeah no more arguing except one thing. Can we all just agree that the Skaven have a harder time than Orcs Dorfs or any Elfs?
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Post by apolloswill on Sept 12, 2015 2:10:27 GMT
Ok ok ok yeah no more arguing except one thing. Can we all just agree that the Skaven have a harder time than Orcs Dorfs or any Elfs? Are you crazy? Two levels up on a Gutter, one of them being +Mov, and you can sprint half the field in one turn, without any smart shenanigans. Say 1TTD all the time. When opponents are receiving they better get that ball right away or else...ZOOOM ZOOOM touchdowns to the rats . Serious note, I see it. I can't argument against that the dwarves are not strong, and annoying to play against, but I really think the teams are balanced. I think the dwarves are getting a bad rep, because they are an easy team to turn in to just a team destroyer. And I'm certain a lot of players does that, and it is really frustrating to play against a team that is not build for winning, but build to just destroy your players. But what if the dwarf coach actually want to win? And not just find enjoyment in injuring players? Than isn't it a different discussion? Here in BB2, its probably very noticeable here in the start, since lack of speed2, and all teams are in the early stages. I think this will soon go away, and the dwarves becomes just another team in IP. I hope you all are not too annoyed playing against dwarves. I do really want to try to develop a dwarf team, and see where it goes. Of course I also want to return to play an elf team, when they are in the game, and hopefully, eventually I will be good enough to play a skaven team. I really want to be good with them, but they and my coaching just don't seem to mix well.
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Post by apolloswill on Sept 12, 2015 2:20:45 GMT
And that's the end of the discussion for me. Like it or not....the DorfFathers say; *in a Marlon Brando voice* "It's just business, son"
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Post by Kaiser on Sept 12, 2015 2:58:42 GMT
@cj thats interesting. I'm not familiar with the point system you've described, where might I find it? Also, dodge on AG4 elves at low tv (when there is no tackle) is not at all comparable with block on dorfs with their terrible stats anyway... what makes dorfs good at low TV and terrrible as TVs increase is their skills.they need the block to contend with the ST4 bash teams, once the other bash teams have widespread block, the dorfs have guard. once the ST4 gits have guard, the game is mostly over for the dwarfs. If blockers lose their block to start the whole team has no stats or skills and wouldn't be viable at all, at any TV. Orcs would be superior at everything, at every TV and everyone would just play those dirty chorfs skill trump stats, but skills and stats will beat the skills every time. If you the edge in skill from the dorfs they have nothing at all. again these are just (slight) problems at low TV when skills are scarce, as dorfs don't really get much better as they develop. Nobody complains that chaos sucks when starting out because they become powerful later on. Perfect balance at all levels is not achievable Frankly I think dorfs are subject to so much (irrational) hate because people don't play them and never learned how to beat them. www.midgardbb.com/NewBBTeamBuildingGuide.html
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Post by gone on Sept 12, 2015 7:11:09 GMT
Yes I can they have 2 players with MA6, not 4 Orc blitzers are objectively better than dwarf blitzers, so of course they should cost more. the rest of the orc team's abilities has nothing to do with the price of the orc blitzer. If you honestly can't think of such a scenario, I have trouble believing you have played dwarves. Score in 4 turns against a competent defender, just try it. Lack of diversity is not a strength. Khemri may be the least diverse team in the game and it hardly makes them OP Also all these qualities describe orcs too. Do orcs not try and overpower their opponent on the way to the endzone? the difference is orcs have other options, they usually won't have to use them, but if anything goes wrong (KO blitz, pitch invasion, limited time to score) they can do more than just curse Nuffle and accept the loss. It sounds like you may have a problem with bash in general and not the dwarf team. Granted they're tough at low TV, but blood bowl isn't perfectly balanced. Those dorfs will flounder against orcs at any tv above 1600 or so If you play dorf-ball against the dorfs, you are almost certainly going to lose. So don't. Play to your opposition's weaknesses, unless they are orcs, because orcs have no weaknesses. "Play to your opposition's weaknesses?" Even if you do that against dwarves, you may not have much of a team left in which to do so. Hence part of the op'd part. Orc's, even though they have a higher armor value like the dwarves, do not have the same punching power and need more RR's. Granted, the dwarves have weaknesses on the pitch in regards to versatility with or toward the ball, but they aren't gonna suffer their next match because of it. And, more importantly, usually the opponent had good die rolls or you lacked strategy when you do lose. They should have upped the cost on the dwarves and made it where if they wanted those specialized players, they can use their money to get them. As it stands right now, they get all their positional players (minus the deathroller) at the start with a few rerolls (of which are less needed). Orcs, on the other hand, can do the same thing. But they don't get the ability to pummel the opponent as hard and are succeptable to being knocked down easier allowing other teams to create an offense or to create a defense. Its not that I disagree with the increase in cost for orc blitzers. Its the part of "why didn't they increase the cost of dwarves?" And we all know that dwarves are more lethal because every player (aside the two runners) on the dwarf side are slower blitzers. And in the longer term, they also become stronger because they all (aside from the two runners) can get guard as a normal skill. "unless they are orcs, because orcs have no weaknesses." sounds derogatory considering... Not sure if I should respond to that, ignore it, or something else.... If anything, tell me how they are not op'd instead of mocking... No, I don't have a problem with bash. I have a problem with other factors besides just in-match stuff. A wood-elf may be able to throw and move the ball around easier than a dwarf, but their life spans are considerably shorter and generally won't be on the pitch for very long against bash teams let alone any team. But they cost the same if not more. And losing them is much more likely than any dwarf. So, for wood-elves, they will be more often than not, using their money to replace players and/or get stuck with loners. And loners without skills are far less useful and require those TRR's, but loner resolves that pretty quick. Dwarf's, and that is if they do have loners, don't suffer the same penalty as the need for them needing TRR's is almost null. So, in the later game, dwarves will have a bunch of experience players on the pitch while everyone else will be limited to only a few. And this is wrong. Also, any other "bash" team have a lot more drawbacks. Chaos don't come with any skills outside of horns and less durable. Norse come with less armor value. Orcs aren't as "bashy" and more for positioning and durability. And more examples I am sure. But their is always something needed for those other "bashy" teams. I can literally play a rookie dwarf team against any other opponent with any tv and be a challenge if not overwelm them. Can you do that with any other team? Don't think so. And good luck trying to prove me wrong.... I understand why there are soo many players unwilling to play against them. It's not the winning or losing part playing against them!!!!!!!! Its everything else that comes with it!!!!!!
So the dwarves should have been looked at more than the damn orc blitzers.... Trying to level out other teams should have been a concern, but ignoring the obvious was simply stupid.
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Post by gone on Sept 12, 2015 7:13:27 GMT
Ok ok ok yeah no more arguing except one thing. Can we all just agree that the Skaven have a harder time than Orcs Dorfs or any Elfs? Skaven are brutal. I still find it difficult to play them due to outside of the match factors. Deaths are too common place and players too expensive for my liking. I never liked having only a few players with experience on a team. Losing them can crush ya!
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Post by Squiggy on Sept 12, 2015 7:23:44 GMT
After playing as, and against, dwarves many times, I think they are relatively balanced (for a given value of balanced) and no more op then a few over teams I could mention (dark elves!)
There is only one thing that really really bugs me about dwarves...a minorish detail but it's bugged me for years...
Why in the holy hell do dwarves get Thick Skull but orcs, particularly black orcs, don't?
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Post by gone on Sept 12, 2015 7:24:18 GMT
in the creation of a team to work out how much a player costs the skill block counts as 3 point to the score, Dwarf are the ONLY team to get the block skill for 2 points (norse cost 2.5) and they have normal access the strength skills (guard and MB) and their RR's are too cheap so from that aspect they are op i think if the blockers (longbeards) started without block they would be fine... (after all elf teams dont start with dodge, hell they dont start with anything) having said that, drawfs are hard to win with, and you wont normally score more than 2 times a game I think what they did with chaos dwarves was better. only six very slow linemen players full out bash (7 if you include minotaur). That leaves some flexibility for opponents to help minimize long term losses, still able to create a run game, and manages to put dwarves on a more even playing scale to other teams. although it still creates a headache, but at least you shouldn't be coming out with loads of dead in which to spend the last two matches income on and creates a bit of that to the dwarves. Dwarves aren't that hard to win with (especially if you know how to make a box or how to stop your opponent from having flexibility to get to the carrier). You may lose the match, but you come out on top overall. That is the problem with Dwarves. Win or lose, you still are quite capable of playing the next match! Other teams are not soo "generous" in that feel...
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Post by gone on Sept 12, 2015 7:37:06 GMT
Ok ok ok yeah no more arguing except one thing. Can we all just agree that the Skaven have a harder time than Orcs Dorfs or any Elfs? Are you crazy? Two levels up on a Gutter, one of them being +Mov, and you can sprint half the field in one turn, without any smart shenanigans. Say 1TTD all the time. When opponents are receiving they better get that ball right away or else...ZOOOM ZOOOM touchdowns to the rats . Serious note, I see it. I can't argument against that the dwarves are not strong, and annoying to play against, but I really think the teams are balanced. I think the dwarves are getting a bad rep, because they are an easy team to turn in to just a team destroyer. And I'm certain a lot of players does that, and it is really frustrating to play against a team that is not build for winning, but build to just destroy your players. But what if the dwarf coach actually want to win? And not just find enjoyment in injuring players? Than isn't it a different discussion? Here in BB2, its probably very noticeable here in the start, since lack of speed2, and all teams are in the early stages. I think this will soon go away, and the dwarves becomes just another team in IP. I hope you all are not too annoyed playing against dwarves. I do really want to try to develop a dwarf team, and see where it goes. Of course I also want to return to play an elf team, when they are in the game, and hopefully, eventually I will be good enough to play a skaven team. I really want to be good with them, but they and my coaching just don't seem to mix well. Dwarves are not balanced. They are a tier one team due to lack of outside of the game necessities. They don't need to replace players nearly as often as ANY other team even in the late game. They will have more experienced players than any other team. For example, dwarves will have the easiest time to upgrade their stadium let alone the fact that they will also be the fastest at being able to do so. Orcs would come second due to their high armor. But since they don't have all block and do have to take chances and suffer turnovers more, they won't get the bonus income from 2+ casualties and/or 2+ TD's every match (dwarves will get their 2+ casualties even on bad die roll games). Its not that I disagree with orc blockers going up in value, its the fact that dwarves weren't even touched that pisses me off. Also, I personally think they should have left alone the money gains from Fan Factor. Elves (just about any elf team if not all) heavily relied on that to help keep up their team! With the stadium bonuses now, this thing I mention with the Dwarf's plays a serious consideration. Other teams DO NOT have the same feasibility as the Dwarf's in which to accumulate the funds.
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Post by Kaiser on Sept 12, 2015 7:44:01 GMT
i have yet to lose vs a dwarf team in BB 2 in 18 games i have only lost 2 and it was to humans edit yes FZ i do agree with you.. dwarfs will have more cash than other players and so will have better time of it in long run
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Post by gone on Sept 12, 2015 8:00:28 GMT
@cj thats interesting. I'm not familiar with the point system you've described, where might I find it? Also, dodge on AG4 elves at low tv (when there is no tackle) is not at all comparable with block on dorfs with their terrible stats anyway... what makes dorfs good at low TV and terrrible as TVs increase is their skills.they need the block to contend with the ST4 bash teams, once the other bash teams have widespread block, the dorfs have guard. once the ST4 gits have guard, the game is mostly over for the dwarfs. If blockers lose their block to start the whole team has no stats or skills and wouldn't be viable at all, at any TV. Orcs would be superior at everything, at every TV and everyone would just play those dirty chorfs skill trump stats, but skills and stats will beat the skills every time. If you the edge in skill from the dorfs they have nothing at all. again these are just (slight) problems at low TV when skills are scarce, as dorfs don't really get much better as they develop. Nobody complains that chaos sucks when starting out because they become powerful later on. Perfect balance at all levels is not achievable Frankly I think dorfs are subject to so much (irrational) hate because people don't play them and never learned how to beat them. www.midgardbb.com/NewBBTeamBuildingGuide.htmlDodge doesn't set long term effects against another team. that was the comparison. neither does agility 4. And usually agility 4 has low armor and don't last long on the pitch. Which would be fine if outside the match sequence didn't require you to replace those players as often. I am focusing on the "outside the match" factors. Not so much in-match. There is no reason why any team should have such an advantage and still have all the assets of other teams. For example, dwarves should not be able to have an apothecary or wizard for their team, but rather a metal smith that would increase game earnings by 10k for each kill.... This would give them a taste of their own medicine on occasion. They also could have done other things I think to make them a tad more diverse in positions rather than what they currently have. For example, the runners should have a strength 2 along with their increased agility, but perhaps dodge or something nimble as an added skill. Blitzers should be the only ones that have normal strength and agility. Anyway, something should have been done and increasing another team's blitzer prices and not even look at dwarves is a bit ludicrous if you ask me. If they did do something to the Dwarf's cost or whatever, I may have more open to the idea of screwing with the Orcs. But, as it stands now, I have every right to be upset over this stupid maneuver of theirs. I am currently hoping that they didn't screw with the wood-elf dancers as that is the team I chose when I pre-ordered.... If they did, I want to see something done so I have someone with block on the damn race! And I liked what they did with human catchers with increasing their armor value. But, honestly, I do think they could have done something else to make the humans more "versatile" in game play. I don't like the fact that the "options" are limited at the moment. I like to have the choice of whether I utilize the pass skill or not for example. I thought it was also rumored that there would be more of an even-ing out amongst the teams during game-play. I forgot what they call it, but its the in-game thing that boosts whatever to attempt to keep the game closer.... I haven't seen that yet either, so I don't think they added that or even if they thought about it. Anyway, thanks to many of you for being good peeps and not making attacks in regards to my frustration!
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Post by gone on Sept 12, 2015 8:14:34 GMT
After playing as, and against, dwarves many times, I think they are relatively balanced (for a given value of balanced) and no more op then a few over teams I could mention (dark elves!) There is only one thing that really really bugs me about dwarves...a minorish detail but it's bugged me for years... Why in the holy hell do dwarves get Thick Skull but orcs, particularly black orcs, don't? its not the in-match stuff that bugs me as much as the outside-of-match stuff. Hence, raising the cost of Dwarves would be fair. But, personally, I think they should change them around a bit so they aren't so team killing/destroying. For example, eliminate the tackle ability as one of the starting skills on linemen and put it on their blitzers. Make the blitzers 10k more than what they are now and the linemen at what they currently cost. Make their runners +1 mv and -1 st with the dump off ability at no additional cost. And change their apothecary to a blacksmith that helps the team's earnings by 10k per kill/death in the match. Or simply just change their earnings to 10k for each casualty inflicted on the opponent. This might change their "abundance" of gold pieces and make it more even with other teams. This might also add diversity to the team in regards to playing them. That way they have their chances of failure the same as other teams instead of being the team that has the least amount of turnover ratios.... And lmao. I was thinking about the same thing in regards to that Thick Skull? Why indeed!
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Post by gone on Sept 12, 2015 8:47:12 GMT
Now I know that some of you will simply disagree, but no one can argue the fact that dwarves still op'd. Yes I can Point proventhey have 2 players with MA6, not 4 2 positions or 2 players? Or are the blitzers mv a 5 instead of 6? Either way, not a very big concern.Orc blitzers are objectively better than dwarf blitzers, so of course they should cost more. the rest of the orc team's abilities has nothing to do with the price of the orc blitzer. if that is how they thought when they made them, then that would be the reason of the off-balance for teams. And its a big difference when ya got 9 bashers with block vs 4. And the black orcs are less likely to be successful than a player with block.If you honestly can't think of such a scenario, I have trouble believing you have played dwarves. Score in 4 turns against a competent defender, just try it. when you have 5 players left on the pitch all on their faces or backs.... and that is common place for other teams playing against dwarves. some teams less so than others....
And I have played dwarfs. They are boring and it isn't in my game to literally destroy the opponent's team and make them hate the game. And that is what the dwarfs do. So its been awhile since I played them. And I don't think I will ever play them again either. It ruins enjoyment of building up teams whether I play them or against them. Orcs are not so nearly as lethal and have many more chances of turnovers than dwarfs do.Lack of diversity is not a strength. Khemri may be the least diverse team in the game and it hardly makes them OP that is because the whole team doesn't have high armor and block... what is it? 2 blitzers with 8 for armor and 4 higher strength guys that still have a higher chance of causing turnovers? think I have it right with what I say....Also all these qualities describe orcs too. Do orcs not try and overpower their opponent on the way to the endzone? the difference is orcs have other options, they usually won't have to use them, but if anything goes wrong (KO blitz, pitch invasion, limited time to score) they can do more than just curse Nuffle and accept the loss. It sounds like you may have a problem with bash in general and not the dwarf team. Orks have more risks and chances of turnovers. Block isn't on every player. Higher strength isn't as good as block statistically.Granted they're tough at low TV, but blood bowl isn't perfectly balanced. Those dorfs will flounder against orcs at any tv above 1600 or so I seriously doubt that!!! Considering I can still play a rookie dwarf team against much higher tv teams out there and still give them a hell of a challenge, but can't do the same with orcs, I am sticking to my opinion being better from the experience I have had in the past....If you play dorf-ball against the dorfs, you are almost certainly going to lose. So don't. dorf-ball meaning the run game? if so, ok. I know that. But imagine not being able to make a gap at least to get one player on the other side of them. More due to die rolls, but experienced players playing dwarfs know how to eliminate that aspect.Play to your opposition's weaknesses, unless they are orcs, because orcs have no weaknesses. Again (since I quoted your post before), this comment was uncalled for! I can take another person's perspective whether they disagree or agree. And maybe that disagreement can be frustrating, but slamming someone for what they think is uncalled for. Keep that crap to your personal life please! I don't want it near mine! I can either respond to it in kind or ignore them! And since that isn't what I want, I will ignore them from here forth...Since I didn't feel like figuring out how to separate each thing, I simply made all my "rebukes" in blue below each comment. Keep in mind that this is a common complaint amongst many other players. I am just kind of doing the figuring out why nothing has changed in regards to this. also, keep in mind the long term. When you play against dwarves, do you get mad when you lose players way more often than they do? Do you think its fair that dwarfs will always have the better stadium than you will? Do you think its fair when you only have 5 players left to play the in-match game while the dwarfs are standing above each of your players waiting for you to get back up? Do you think its fair that your players cost just as much, but are more often wounded or dead than they are effective? Anyway, there is a lot to complain about sure enough especially in a game of chance die rolls. Its just that dwarves really point out the problems in regards to league play!
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Post by gone on Sept 12, 2015 8:59:17 GMT
i have yet to lose vs a dwarf team in BB 2 in 18 games i have only lost 2 and it was to humans edit yes FZ i do agree with you.. dwarfs will have more cash than other players and so will have better time of it in long run yeah, in the long run though, you will end up running into teams with the killer combo. But those aren't enough to destroy your team as most teams will only have one or two of them (if they are lucky). And maybe, I will take you up on that challenge to see if you can defeat me while I play Dwarves vs whatever team you choose (except dwarves...lol). I have no concern with keeping the dwarf team and will delete them shortly after anyway, but I am willing to take that challenge!
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